Reading and
Falsehoods
Steiner on karma and illness
From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:22 pm
Subject: Steiner on karma and illness
Andrea
wrote:
If you or somebody else had an idea about
Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you
should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat
diseases from the standpoint of the investigations on the links
of the different "bodies" of Human Being.
Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had to say on the karma of
peoples, the fate of lower races, and their connection to disease:
"If we want really to
understand health and illness, we must bear in mind how complicated
the circumstances are. Illness need not be a matter of individual
karma only; the karma of a whole people has to be taken into
account. An interesting example of how things in the spiritual
life are inter-related can be seen in the migration of the Huns
and Mongols who poured from Asia into the West. The Mongols were
stragglers of the Atlanteans. While the Indians, the Germans
and other peoples were progressing, the Mongols had remained
behind. Just as the animals have separated off from the evolutionary
path of mankind, so have certain lower peoples and races fallen
behind. The Mongols were Atlanteans whose physical development
had taken a downward course. In the astral bodies of such decadent
people an abundance of decaying astral substance can be seen.
When the Mongols fell upon the Germans and other Central European
peoples, they created a wave of fear and panic. These emotions
belong to the astral body, and under such conditions decaying
astral substances will flourish. Thus the astral bodies of Europeans
became infected and in later generations the infection came out
in the physical body, affecting not merely individuals but whole
groups of peoples. It emerged as leprosy, that terrible disease
which wrought such devastation in the Middle Ages. It was the
physical consequence of an influence on the astral body."
(Steiner, At the Gates of Spiritual Science pp. 65-66)
A few pages later, Steiner expounds upon the
relation of karma to physical heredity, the emergence of an "evil
race", the distinction between "ascending" and
"declining" races, and the "purpose of evolution";
as well as the role of the "Aryan race" and the various
"missions" of the various "sub-races". Earlier
in the book Steiner explains that racial differences are not
merely physical; they impact the moral nature of the person,
as well as their astral body and "I". Savages and Europeans
are of a different moral and intellectual nature, according to
Steiner, and this difference is clearly marked in the higher
members of their being. Regarding the physical body, etheric
body, astral body, and the I, Steiner proclaims:
"Every human being has
these four members; but there is a difference between a primitive
savage and a civilised European, and also between the latter
and a Francis of Assisi, or a Schiller. A refinement of the moral
nature produces finer colours in the aura; an increase in the
power of discrimination between good and evil also shows itself
in a refinement of the aura. In the process of becoming civilised
the "I" has worked upon the astral body and ennobled
the desires. The higher the moral and intellectual development
of a man, the more will his "I" have worked upon the
astral body. The seer can distinguish between a developed and
an undeveloped human being."
(Steiner, At the Gates of Spiritual Science p. 15)
Peter
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Fri Apr 23, 2004 9:42 pm
Subject: Re: Steiner on karma and illness
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had
to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and
their connection to disease:
Sounds like a bad note being passed in class...
Here read this, pisst, pisst, look what johnny called sally,
pisst, pass it on. Now Ghengis Khan was a fine lad. The wonderful
film with Alec Baldwin "The Shadow" that went nowhere
haf a wonderful opening sequence to it, with Ghenghis Khan. The
film was called "The Shadow". The opening sequence
was stunningly interesting to our topic.
Naturally the reference I make to the film,
and the failure you have of making any kind of case against Steiner
with your references, becomes even more obvious with what follows.
But just off the top of my head, the TAO and
the TAOTL were references to beings on the Atlantean Altars.
Taotl was the part of the material borrowed from matter to shape
forms. The Taotl part of the scheme was the being who handles
number, measure and weight and was fairly important on the Atlantean
altars.
The Tao was the ringing music of the spheres
part of the Spirit and the Taotl as matter to cloth the spirit
worked together to cloth spiritual beings, the animal kingdom
in shrink wrap skin clothing. But Taotl moved along the evolutionary
line of Gold the Templars and the Aztec altars. TAOTL gets progressively
meaner and we can trace this influence right up to the Third
Reich.
Now the point was that Genghis Shocka Khan
had a good dose of the this Being who once shared the altars
with TAO. Genghis was the walking thrust of this being, fully
inspired, for some time and the opening of the film, "The
Shadow" shows just what I mean by this. The opening sequence
of "The Shadow" gives a remarkable window into this
Taotl.. but the rest of the film was just junk.. the opening
had potential.
Now the invading hordes laid down such a wave
of astral terror, such disturbing imaginations of torture and
fear that the astral blanket of vivid nightmare and fear settled
in as a form of parasitical disease that allowed the immune systems
of Europe to become receptive to the plague. If we look at St.
Anthony's fire and the boils that erupted on the skin and the
Colmar painting that healed those afflicted, we see right into
a window of Mel Gibson's "The Passion". The Colmar
paintings cured people of St. Anthony's fire which was an extreme
astral disturbance. The painting was done by the Initiate Grunewald
and the painting itself was so dramatic, and I have studied these
paintings carefully, that they cured certain astral diseases
that appeared at the time. The Rats were one thing with the Plague,
but the spread of the disease was in conjunction with The FEAR
FACTOR of the Mongul hordes.
The example you gave does not support your
pet thesis but it was a wonderful window into the depths of Steiner.
It rather supports Daniel and Steiner's understanding of the
integration of etheric and astral bodies with the immune system
and weakness that bring causes and effects from strange quarters
to blanket and infect the astral world. Your quotes do connect
to my 12th lecture study of "Man as Symphony" and it
was really a prime example of the type of parasitical receptivity
described in the 12th lecture given by Steiner in 1923.
Another thing it doesn't support for you,
is the blatant difference between St. Francis and Fredrich Schiller
and a Cannibal. It doesn't support your thesis or ideas, it rather
goes to prove what all of us have said all along. The I AM penetrates
and elaborates the Intellectual Soul, Consciousness Soul, Spirit
Self...etc.. and this makes the individual and cultural development
itself, different from those who have yet to take up higher learning
and abstract thought or those who have not been exposed to culture
development at all.
Your example is like saying there is no difference
for normal observation between Abhraham Lincoln and Jeffery Dahmer.
Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect the
soul in different ways. Just like Cannibalism not only causes
mad cow by eating brains of animals but cannaibals also degenerate
by eating themselves. Depravity and having a degenerate group
under the Mongol Hordes, inspired by the most vicious degenerating
spirit under the TAOTL, Atlantean altars doesn't even come close
to proving your point. It rather proves Steiner right once again.
...................................................................................................................................
From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:15 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Steiner on karma and
illness
Hi Bradford, thanks for your refreshingly
frank post. You wrote:
the failure you have of making any kind of case against Steiner
with your references
Steiner isn't on trial, and there is no case against him as such.
My case is about Steiner's teachings on race and ethnicity.
TAOTL gets progressively meaner and we
can trace this influence right up to the Third Reich.
I've got another movie recommendation for you. Go see Hellboy.
It has a lot of fun making light of this sort of comic-book history.
Now the invading hordes laid down such
a wave of astral terror, such disturbing imaginations of torture
and fear that the astral blanket of vivid nightmare and fear
settled in as a form of parasitical disease that allowed the
immune systems of Europe to become receptive to the plague. If
we look at St. Anthony's fire and the boils that erupted on the
skin and the Colmar painting that healed those afflicted, we
see right into a window of Mel Gibson's "The Passion".
You mean Mel's got some sort of disease? That might explain a
lot about his movie.
The Colmar paintings cured people of St. Anthony's fire which
was an extreme astral disturbance. The painting was done by the
Initiate Grunewald and the painting itself was so dramatic, and
I have studied these paintings carefully, that they cured certain
astral diseases that appeared at the time.
Well that's a relief. Maybe Mel can find the time to get himself
to Alsace for the cure, and his next movie might not be such
dreck.
Another thing it doesn't support for you, is the blatant difference
between St. Francis and Fredrich Schiller and a Cannibal.
Uh, Bradford? Steiner doesn't mention cannibals in the passages
I quoted. Is there some reason you thought cannibalism was relevant
in this context?
this makes the individual and cultural development itself,
different from those who have yet to take up higher learning
and abstract thought or those who have not been exposed to culture
development at all.
You mean that the people Steiner calls "primitive savages"
had not been exposed to cultural development at all? They grew
up outside of culture? In a space station orbiting the earth
maybe? Or an airtight bubble somewhere, sealed off from the outside
world?
Your example is like saying there is no
difference for normal observation between Abhraham Lincoln and
Jeffery Dahmer.
Dahmer was a criminal. "Primitive" peoples are not,
as such, criminals. Perhaps you think otherwise?
Which is to say Moral elevation and moral depravity infect
the soul in different ways.
Do you think that "primitive" peoples have different
kinds of souls from other peoples?
Just like Cannibalism not only causes mad cow by eating brains
of animals but cannaibals also degenerate by eating themselves.
What does cannibalism have to do with it? Are you trying to tell
us that you think all "primitive" peoples are or were
cannibals? And would this explain why some of them "had
to die out" in your view?
Curious,
Peter
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sat Apr 24, 2004 12:42 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness
Andrea
wrote:
If you or somebody else had an idea about
Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you
should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat
diseases from the standpoint of the investigations on the links
of the different "bodies" of Human Being.
[PS:]
Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had
to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and
their connection to disease:
Andrea;
Oh good!! I see that Staudenmaier is interested
in Anthrop.medicine! Well: Basic Steiner's test on Anthro Medicine:
GA 27 (with Ita Wegman) written 1921,
GA 312 /lect 1920
GA 314 (lect 1920-24)
GA 315 (lect 1922)
GA 317 (lect1924)
GA 318 (lect 1924)
GA 319 (lect 1924)
I think that you Peter since you're goin on
to discuss medical matters, should know all about those subjects
and also something about the, more or less, 370 books of Anthro
Medicine that, in several languages, are available on the books
market.
So can you be so kind, Mr Staudenmaier, to
tell me what are your credentials about the matter or, at least,
which of the above Steiner's books did you read ?
Moreover what do you know about today's development
of anthrop.medicine ? What do you think , for instance , of the
topic discussed in Helmut Kiene's basic work ? What do you know
about the studies on "Viscum Album" and Immunology
?
What about the effects of Eurhytmy's Therapy
on Autism ? There could be many different topics to be discussed
but I stop here.
Andrea
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:21 pm
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and illness
Hi Peter Staudenmaier,
have you an intention to give an answer to
the question posted below or have myself to conclude about it
?
Andrea
wrote:
If you or somebody else had an idea about
Anthoposophical medicine, especially about its development, you
should also been aware how RS gave basic indication how to treat
diseases from the standpoint of the investigations on the links
of the different "bodies" of Human Being.
[PS:]
Here is some of what Rudolf Steiner had
to say on the karma of peoples, the fate of lower races, and
their connection to disease:
Andrea;
Oh good!! I see that Staudenmaier is interested
in Anthrop.medicine! Well: Basic Steiner's test on Anthro Medicine:
GA 27 (with Ita Wegman) written 1921,
GA 312 /lect 1920
GA 314 (lect 1920-24)
GA 315 (lect 1922)
GA 317 (lect1924)
GA 318 (lect 1924)
GA 319 (lect 1924)
I think that you Peter since you're goin
on to discuss medical matters, should know all about those subjects
and also something about the, more or less, 370 books of Anthro
Medicine that, in several languages, are available on the books
market.
So can you be so kind, Mr Staudenmaier,
to tell me what are your credentials about the matter or, at
least, which of the above Steiner's books did you read ?
Moreover what do you know about today's
development of anthrop.medicine ? What do you think , for instance
, of the topic discussed in Helmut Kiene's basic work ? What
do you know about the studies on "Viscum Album" and
Immunology ?
What about the effects of Eurhytmy's Therapy
on Autism ? There could be many different topics to be discussed
but I stop here.
Andrea
...................................................................................................................................
From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and
illness
Hi Andrea, you wrote:
have you an intention to give an answer to the question posted
below
Nope.
Thanks for asking,
Peter
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: Steiner on karma and illness
Peter Staudenmaier wrote:
brad;
Which is to say Moral elevation and moral
depravity infect the soul in different ways.
peter;
Do you think that "primitive"
peoples have different kinds of souls from other peoples?
Well lets see, we proved that a toxic wave
of astral nightmare swept through Europe, provoked by butchers
who had no mercy, no human compassion and no respect for village,
town or culture. However the toxic wave was so horrifyingly primitive
that we had to marvel, where the heck that came from? A wave
of depravity, inspired by what?
Comic Books, maybe so. Atlantean installations
in the Gobi were also the thing of comics back in the 1920's.
You might not want to narrow your perception of all that leaks
through culture, even in the form of comic books. Startling affirmations,
twisted though they be, can be observed if you have a keen eye.
Since I worked at the CDC, I have had some
time to study epidemics. The boils that appeared and were cured
by those who had St. Anthony's fire, might do well today with
different remedies than a stunning vivid painting. But the vivid
painting of the Crucifixion and Resurrection, the most stunning
one ever painted, was placed as comic book panels, while the
patients, in pain, experienced an entire astral agony, with the
vividness of the painting by Grunewald.
Steiner was very, very advanced in his study
of the immune system, so termed today, but classically termed
the Etheric Body. The Etheric Body is the lymphatic immune system
and this has been documented very carefully, long before anybody
even imagined immune system. Today you rank among the ignorant
in the fact that you do not know how to connect immune system
with etheric body. It reveals a cultural stuntedness that you
share with the AMA.
The Etheric body is like many ground breaking
terms and insights. In retrospect you might say, Oh, that can't
mean that or this or the other. Modern humanity, not the Polynesians,
or Mayans were to encounter and bear more and more forceful illneseses.
But isolated tribes, left over from ancient migrations were etherically
like green house plants. However in Spiritual Science, karma
and medicine and in particular the example of the invading Hordes
you gave, are perfect examples of this very parastical weakness
of the immune system, having been spread by sheer, unchecked
terror.
I can point out to you the etheric scar that
Michael Jackson got in his development when his parents gave
him female hormones to keep his voice high and his disturbing
childhood stardom, failed to enter puberty properly. I can point
out the interface to certain manifesations of illness, or we
could even look at Philip the Fair of circa 1330 something. Here
we can examine very interesting problems of the astral body.
I know you wouldn't be able to follow, but you obviously came
here to get an education which you lack.
Terror, horror, and "The Nightmare on
Elm STreet" movies, have to do with the Astral body. It
is clear that such a cartoon series as "NightMare on Elm
Street", all had to do with falling asleep and leaving your
physical body in your bed and entering your astral body and the
lower astral world. Oh it pays to pay attention to cultural cartoons.
Once out of your body, in the world of images and nightmares,
you were in an astral landscape of DreamCAtchers. Dreamcatchers
were spider web like constructions to enable you to capture your
journeys in the astral world. We can learn a lot from culture
when we look at it carefully. At least 'we' meaning those who
are operating with a higher intelligence than you.
The essence of Depravity or Moral development
proceeds two ways. Studied conscious depravity is nothing less
than packing up the Jewish population and sending them to ovens.
Zyclon B Cyanide has a shattering occult effect. Cyanide is a
peculiar substance for the I AM. Only a scientist can go from
cyanide to the core of comets in space and the destiny of Halley's
comet linked to MarK Twain in a matter of pages.
So if we enter a new CDC paradigm, (Center
for Disease Control) we find not only astral illnesses, etheric
problems, but also cyanide can deter the form of the I AM. Who
had the most advanced research into the medical foundations of
humanity? Who brought the deepest insights into the cure and
cause of Cancer and the deepest understanding of epidemiology,
well in advance of the CDC? Anthro Medicine that is who. But
you are not thoughtful enough to see the connections. That means,
frankly, you are not too bright.
Where ever groundbreaking, cutting edge research,
profound research arose, at the center of it was Spiritual Science.
Anything that researchers can investigate or uncover, is integrated
within the foundations of Spiritual Science. There is to my mind,
hardly one topic that Spiritual Science couldn't add something
richer to the current research paradigms. Science is riddled
with Spiritual Science but Science does realize it yet. But Spiritual
Science sees both forms of research and how they interface. There
is nothing in the research of Spiritual Science that is not at
the foundation of everything that was ever made.
So as to the depravity, and primitive issues
of an entire group, acting as a group surge, using a Cartoon
(to you) inspired Being named TAOTL to bring a savage astral
terrorism to the whole foundation of Europe, that is the case.
The Attack was pretty impressive if you think about it. It certainly
did not reflect a higher moral elevation of racial urges by human
standards. However your standards are different. This Being who
rode in on the invading hordes used advanced astral epidemiology
techniques and this same being was also the cool industrial corporate
(inspired) killer, for the mass ethnic cleansing of Jews or the
African Ruwanda catastrophe.
And a radical statement from my Man as Symphony
notes tell us that enormous amount of human bodies have had to
be produced to take away the vast hatreds infecting the after
life, brought across the borders into the physical world by humanity.
This gives an indication of the peculiar mass population growth
over the globe and the underlining reasons why so many ugly events
of mass murder have gone on unchecked.
Human forms and souls have absorbed this pollution
of hatred and Steiner presented what was required to cure these
mass exterminations and cleanse the atmosphere of the Earth.
The moral atmosphere of the Earth and hatred is literally absorbed
by human forms. Steiner traced the cycle showing that humanity
must get a grip on understanding, not misunderstanding their
fellow man. Understanding is Wisdom and feelings are Love, which
Brings togther Michael Wisdom with Sophia Wisdom... AnthroSophia.
Anyways those Mongol hordes failed your rankings
of higher and lower categories because, depravity isn't highly
ranked in terms of quality. So if you cannot see the difference
between and refuse to see the difference between depravity and
Christology you are back in the same dead end you started with.
...................................................................................................................................
From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:52 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Steiner on karma and
illness
Bradford, who appears to believe that racists
drive pickup trucks, writes:
The Etheric body is like many ground breaking terms and insights.
In retrospect you might say, Oh, that can't mean that or this
or the other. Modern humanity, not the Polynesians, or Mayans
were to encounter and bear more and more forceful illneseses.
There are lots of Mayan peoples and Polynesian peoples around
today, Bradford. They belong to modern humanity as much as all
other peoples.
So as to the depravity, and primitive issues of an entire
group, acting as a group surge, using a Cartoon (to you) inspired
Being named TAOTL to bring a savage astral terrorism to the whole
foundation of Europe, that is the case.
So you believe that some racial and ethnic groups as a whole
are more "primitive" than others, both physically and
spiritually, and that these "primitive" groups terrorized
Europe? But when Europeans encountered Native Americans, the
latter died out not because of savage terrorism, but because
of their own unfortunate racial constitution and because they
were destined to do so? No attacks in that instance, no invading
hordes, just cosmic-racial fate?
And a radical statement from my Man as Symphony notes tell
us that enormous amount of human bodies have had to be produced
to take away the vast hatreds infecting the after life, brought
across the borders into the physical world by humanity.
Well, in that case, I guess it's a darn good thing that all those
primitive bodies were lying around to take away the hatreds.
Sure makes things easier for modern humanity.
Peter
Do you think that "primitive" peoples
have different kinds of souls from other peoples?
Well lets see
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:06 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and
illness
Andrea lists the many accomplishments of anthroposophic
medicine including:
What about the effects of Eurhytmy's Therapy
on Autism ?
I'd be very interested in this one, if you
can give whatever references or info. you have on eurythmy's
effects on autism.
Thanks,
Diana
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:24 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and
illness
Diana:
I'd be very interested in this one, if
you can give whatever references or info. you have on eurythmy's
effects on autism.
Thanks,
Diana
Hey Diana and Andrea,
I just read an article on this as well from
a non anthro source. I will see if I can find mine as well.
d
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 7:31 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and
illness
Yes, please, Dottie, if you can find it, that'd
be great, especially if it is really from a non-anthro source
and it is specifically about effects of eurythmy for autism.
Thanks!!
Diana
Diana:
I'd be very interested in this one, if
you can give whatever references or info. you have on eurythmy's
effects on autism.
Thanks,
Diana
Hey Diana and Andrea,
I just read an article on this as well
from a non anthro source. I will see if I can find mine as well.
d
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:01 am
Subject: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma and
illness
----- Original Message -----
Hi Diana,
unluckily the precise written ref about it
are not in my files but in my paper archive ( that's a kinda
of jungle!!). Anyway I can remember various sources for instance
the French Magazine "Tournant". the "Anthro Worldwide"
magazine and most of all something else that you cam also find
on the web, I believe, visiting the Camphill Movement sites and
related articles..
Here in the outskirts of Rome there is a Anthrop.
free institution called "Casa Loic" ("Francis
Loic Home") where some fellow eurhytmist, good friends of
mine, works daily with several different kind of persons nwhp
needing. "special care" , autism and Asperger affected
included. This institution has been praised also by our backward-minded
Health National Depart.!!!
Ad majora
Andrea
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:52 am
Subject: Re: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Steiner on karma
and illness
Thank you for these leads, Andrea. I can relate
to the paper jungle :)
Diana
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to subscribe to anthroposophy_tomorrow
April/May
2004
The Uncle
Taz "Anthroposophy Tomorrow" Files
Anthroposophy & Anarchism
Anthroposophy & Scientology
Anthroposophical
Morsels
Anthroposophy,
Critics, and Controversy
