Biblia Web Site
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:20 am
Subject: Biblia Web Site
dottie,
Thanks for the URL which contains such great art work.
rick d.
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie_z
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:12 am
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
Hi Rick,
I just found some interesting art by Micheangelo.
Have you ever heard of the Sibyls? I find he knows of the feminine
right down to the horns on Moses head. One page remarks that
Michel painted this due to a mistranslation of the bible:) whereas
the rays of light have been turned into horns. Very interesting.
Anyway, I have a new site for you to check out an interesting
...well here it is: http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/K.jpg
I believe we find at least three Jesus in
there and one of them is pointing to a woman while another Jesus
is giving the keys to Peter with the same woman standing behind
him. Well, at least this is how I see it at this time.
Love,
Dottie
Rick:
Thanks for the URL which contains such great art work.
...................................................................................................................................
From: pkleonard
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:34 pm
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
dottie_z wrote:
I believe we find at least three Jesus
in there and one of them is pointing to a woman while another
Jesus is giving the keys to Peter with the same woman standing
behind him. Well, at least this is how I see it at this time.
Two, not three.
This is called duel-scene painting; a very common practice during
the Renaissance. (See my 1999 article in Trans Intelligence,
"WERE THERE TWO?", on the art historical record of
the two Jesus children.)
At this site: http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/K.jpg
Christ is seen twice, both times in a blue cloak, one with red
lining, one with green lining. Once with bare feet, once with
sandals, both times with halo.
There is no woman in the foreground, ( and
it is doubtful there is any woman being depicted in the background).
This duel-scene depiction represents Christ
with 11 disciples.
The disciples can be identified and are differentiated
from the modern men, (modern when this painting was done) in
Renaissance clothing, shorter hair style and hats.
There are six disciples in the scene depicting
Christ giving Peter the keys.
There are five disciples in the scene to the
left.
St. John is the figure behind Peter in the
blue garment with rust red cloak with hands folded.
Judas is not shown.
Michaelangelo has his colors correct, but, is either not up on
the esoteric tradition that at all times there were 12 disciples,
or more likely, would not have depicted this information due
to Roman Catholic guidelines of what could and could not be depicted.
Paulina
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:59 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Biblia Web Site
Dottie wrote:
I believe we find at least three Jesus
in there and one of them is pointing to a woman while another
Jesus is giving the keys to Peter with the same woman standing
behind him. Well, at least this is how I see it at this time.
Paulina
Two, not three.
This is called duel-scene painting; a very common practice during
the Renaissance. (See my 1999 article in Trans Intelligence,
"WERE THERE TWO?", on the art historical record of
the two Jesus children.)
Hi Paulina,
Check the backround of the painting. I believe,
I will double check again, but I do believe I saw him in the
background as well in different scenes. I have found that Michel
actually seems to use the same colors for the same people. Like
Jesus has a certain color that coincides with really only him
in a sense. If you check the background I believe you will see
him to the right and also in the left frame. Who do you think
Jesus is pointing to in the left scene?
I will use your notes below when I look again
at the painting. Do you really not seen any females there standing
in line? Or mabye we are looking at diffferent pictures I will
check again.
Love,
Dottie
Paulina wrote:
At this site: http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/K.jpg
Christ is seen twice, both times in a blue cloak, one with red
lining, one with green lining. Once with bare feet, once with
sandals, both times with halo.
There is no woman in the foreground, (
and it is doubtful there is any woman being depicted in the background).
This duel-scene depiction represents Christ
with 11 disciples.
The disciples can be identified and are
differentiated from the modern men, (modern when this painting
was done) in Renaissance clothing, shorter hair style and hats.
There are six disciples in the scene depicting
Christ giving Peter the keys.
There are five disciples in the scene to
the left.
St. John is the figure behind Peter in
the blue garment with rust red cloak with hands folded.
Judas is not shown.
Michaelangelo has his colors correct, but, is either not up on
the esoteric tradition that at all times there were 12 disciples,
or more likely, would not have depicted this information due
to Roman Catholic guidelines of what could and could not be depicted.
Paulina
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:54 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Biblia Web Site
--- Two, not three.
This is called duel-scene painting; a very common practice during
the Renaissance. (See my 1999 article in Trans Intelligence,
"WERE THERE TWO?", on the art historical record of
the two Jesus children.)
Hi Paulina,
If you check on this page
http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/K.html
you can see closer views of this. I clearly
see women there. I imagine you know the history of this art piece
and I can only go by what it looks and feels like to me in a
sense. I see at least 3 Jesus and also 3 women. This page I am
directing you to is actually a page where you can see all panels
and a bit closer if you'd like. In the center of the piece in
what I am now going to call a chapel for lack of knowledge of
what it is exactly called, I see a man and wife. Maybe the idea
of mystical marriage, I don't know.
Also in looking further I checked out Michel's
Last Supper at the same site
http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/I.html
and I see a woman sitting directly across
from Jesus. I am imaging someone is going to tell me this is
John and I will have to say the more I hear I am mixing up John
and a woman the more I feel I must be on the right path of this
Lazarus rising. How can it be the only excuse one hears about
this being a female is that John has effeminate features. Well
one day we are going to find out 'why' he has such feminine features:)
is all I have to say:).
Love,
Dottie
p.s. I do not know how to critque a painting
like you. I also see the same colors although which is led me
to the colors and similarity of the background scenes. I almost
wonder if this is a way of showing Jesus' path towards his sacrifice.
And what do you make of the finger pointing
in the painting of the left panel? What do you think this signifies
compared to Peter being handed the keys?
...................................................................................................................................
From: pkleonard
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
dottie zold wrote:
Dottie wrote:
I believe we find at least three Jesus
in there and one of them is pointing to a woman while another
Jesus is giving the keys to Peter with the same woman standing
behind him. Well, at least this is how I see it at this time.
Paulina
Two, not three.
This is called duel-scene painting; a very common practice during
the Renaissance. (See my 1999 article in Trans Intelligence,
"WERE THERE TWO?", on the art historical record of
the two Jesus children.)
Hi Paulina,
Check the backround of the painting. I believe, I will double
check again, but I do believe I saw him in the background as
well in different scenes. I have found that Michel actually seems
to use the same colors for the same people. Like Jesus has a
certain color that coincides with really only him in a sense.
If you check the background I believe you will see him to the
right and also in the left frame. Who do you think Jesus is pointing
to in the left scene?
1.
I did check the background, however, the background is essentially
irrelevant to this portion of the mural.
2.
I believe you mean to say Michelangelo, not Michel. (Michelangelo
Buonarroti)
If so, then what do you mean that you have
found that this artist uses the same colors for the same people?
What are yourart historical references from which you make this
statement?
3.
Michelangelo in all probability would not have painted any of
the background, and not all of the foreground. These murals,
as well as most commissions, came out of workshops with a multitude
of craftsmen at varying levels and degrees of apprenticeship
working on the same location.
I reiterate, there is no woman in the compositional
foreground.
This scene protrays:
- 11 disciples,
-an interesting duel-scene depiction of Jesus, and
-an assortment of Michelangelo's peers standing around them.
In all probability each of the Renaisance
figures is an actual depiction of someone known personally to
either Michelangelo, or else a depiction of someone requested
to be included in the scene by the Pope or other person of position
who had the power to determined if the artist ate or not.
Paulina
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie_z
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:19 pm
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
Paulina wrote:
2.
I believe you mean to say Michelangelo, not Michel. (Michelangelo
Buonarroti)
Hi Paulina,
I feel to write Michel for some reason but
yes it is Michelangelo that I am referring to.
Okay, so we don't see the same thing however
I would like to know if you could share what your thoughts are
of Jesus pointing to the one person:) on the left panel?
Also if you have time could you check out
the Last Supper by Michelangelo? (I left the website on the last
post) Who is that sitting by himself facing the diners at the
table? And who is he looking at? I also see two women at the
table, do you?
I don't think there are eleven by accident.
I have a very small book on Michelangelo and I do not recall
it stating why had done some of the things he had. I am wondering
where he got the four Sibyls from as well, and also if there
is any outer note on why he painted 11 although there is a twelth
at the table in a sense, just on the other side.
In regards to seeing the same colors I guess
I had just finished looking at the Sibyls and was surprised to
see them in a similar manner of the Jesus clothing. Something
feminine about them in a way, something soft versus the other
colors. So, when I went back to the 'Keys to Peter' scene I just
noticed a similarity in feeling and look.
Do you know of a good book I might be able
to reference these things? I am terribly interested in the way
he painted the ancestors and such and for what reason.
Thanks Paulina,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: pkleonard
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:19 am
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
dottie_z wrote:
Okay, so we don't see the same thing however
I would like to know if you could share what your thoughts are
of Jesus pointing to the one person:) on the left panel?
I don't see that Jesus is pointing to anyone,
but, simply gesturing. When we are in conversation we tend to
move our hands around.
You are trying to read into these paintings
what you want to see, not what was put there by the artist. Sometimes
there are hidden messages to be found - for example in many of
the Raphael Madonnas where the infant is holding a red carnation,
which was a secret signature of Guilliano , who ran Raphael's
Rome workshop - but usually the problem is more one of establishing
harmonic proportioning within the pictorial space then secret
messages
Also if you have time could you check out
the Last Supper by Michelangelo? (I left the website on the last
post) Who is that sitting by himself facing the diners at the
table? And who is he looking at? I also see two women at the
table, do you?
Well, actually I I don't need to go to the
website to see this composition as I am very familiar with this
painting. It is one of fifteen paintings featured in the student
workbook, HOW TO READ A PAINTING, that has been sold along with
the Eye Cue Discovery Tool to educational institutions since
1987. The compositions of the fifteen works of art are analyzed
for the exceptional geometric ordering present.
The commission for this mural to be painted
in the reflectory of Santa Maria delle Grazie in Milan was problematic
for Leonardo. The space involved did not adapt itself to the
proportioning preferred by those who followed Leon Battisa Alberti's
harmonic concordance, (which was everyone of any importance in
art and architecture of the time). The horizontal length would
not pleasingly accept any of Alberti's established harmonics
- not the Double dispason1:2, the Sesquialtera diapente 2:3 ,
Sesquitertia diatessaron 3:4, Double diapente (4:6:9, Diapason
diapente 1:3 (3:6:9), nor the Diapason diatessaron 3:8 (3:6:8).
Leonardo's solution was to establish a square for the center,
take another square, divide it in half and place each of half
to the left and right of the center square, trace diagonals from
the very center of the middle of the square,where he positioned
the Christ figure, divide into vertical proportions and establish
diagonals. Wallah! A masterful idea that impressed everyone who
came to see his resolution of the pictorial space.
Leonardo had a tendence to promise much, and
delay delivery was ,as usual, lagging behind with this work due
to other commission and his indecision about the models he would
use for the hands and faces of the 12 disciples. He made extensive
studies and notes as he worked the problem. A considerable number
of these have survived and in various museums and libraries around
the world. Therefore, we know from the artist himself who the
12 figures are in this mural.
One notation tells us how he considered the
face of one Count Giovanni of the household of the Cardinal of
Mortaro for Christ , and for the hand of Christ the hand of one
Alessandro Charissimo of Parma. Another set of notes give such
lengthly descriptions as:
"One who has been drinking an has left the cup in its place
and turned his head toward the speaker;
"Another, twisting the fingers of his hands together, turns
with stern brows to his companion;
"Another with his hands spread open, showing his palms,
shrugs his shoulder up to his ears, making a a mouth of astonishment....
(this is just an except)
The difficulties Leonardo had in making decisions
on the specific details of the figures, combined from problems
with other commissions, and pressed by the prior of the church
to complete the Last Supper caused him to departed from the traditional
methods of applying water-based color on wet plaster. In rushing
to get the work done he used oil paint on dried plaster, thereby
resulting in the damage done over the centuries to the great
masterpiece.
The only thing Leonardo did not debate endlessly
about was the compositional arrangement of the 12 disciples that
positioned these figures into four groups of three each. This
arrangement was strongly influenced, if not predetermined by
the space where he had to paint this mural.
The essential secret to this painting is its
hidden geometry, and unfortunately art education, which _should_
be teaching visual literacy does not.
There is no one sitting by himself facing
the diners at the table.
There is no one sitting alone at the table,
either.
There definitely are no women at the table.
A long tradition exists in painting the figure
of John as youthful and innocently handsome. You are seeing too
much of the feminine in him, especially when painted by homosexual
artists such as Leonardo and Michelangelo.
I don't think there are eleven by accident.
I have a very small book on Michelangelo and I do not recall
it stating why had done some of the things he had.
I guess that you are jumping back to the Michelangelo
mural. No, the number of apostles would not have been an accident.
Judas is missing.
I am wondering where he got the four Sibyls
from as well,
From the Greeks; definitely from the Greeks.
Renaissance means rebirth
of Greek art.
and also if there is any outer note on
why he painted 11 although there is a twelth at the table in
a sense, just on the other side.
To which painting do you refer? I don't know
what you mean by "outer note", or if you are talking
about, Leonardo or Michelangelo?
Paulina
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie_z
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:28 pm
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
Paulina wrote:
There is no one sitting by himself facing the diners at the
table.
There is no one sitting alone at the table, either.
There definitely are no women at the table.
Dear Paulina,
Thanks for the books.
I am thinking that we may be not looking at
the same picture if you do not see someone across from the diners.
I find him to be in very dark colors even the halo in a sense.
I see women but that is neither here nor there. I see them and
others don't and that is just the way its going to be, I guess.
The picture just to be clear, and maybe I
have misread your post so I will try again, it at http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/I.html
There is a man sitting across from where Jesus
is sitting.
Thanks again, its great to learn about art
history and the hows and whys they think they did such a thing.
Paulina:
and also if there is any outer note on
why he painted 11 although there is a twelth at the table in
a sense, just on the other side.
Dottie:
To which painting do you refer? I don't
know what you mean by "outer note", or if you are talking
about, Leonardo or Michelangelo?
Dottie
I am sorry to be jumping all over here. I am referring to the
Michel's painting. There is someone sitting across from the Christ
in this painting.
Love,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: pkleonard
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:33 pm
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com,
dottie_z wrote:
Dottie
I am sorry to be jumping all over here. I am referring to the
Michel's painting. There is someone sitting across from the Christ
in this painting.
Yes, you are jumping all over the place, and
dottie, there is no 'Michel'.
Please!
His name was Michelangelo. Have some respect!
Michelangelo did not paint a Last Supper.
I understood you to be talking about Leonardo' s Last Supper,
but, I see not that you are not referring to either Leonardo
nor Michelangelo, but, a work by Cosimo Rosselli, "a competent
but uninspired Florentine" artist, shown at : http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/I.html
As you are now talking about a number of artists
and different paintings perhaps it would be best for you to research
these matters. Just go to the library in your area that has the
most extensive art reference department and have someone direct
you to the available references for a specific painting and or
artist. These references are not books that can be taken out,
but, they can be studied on site. Pretty much all of the Renaissance
artists have been thoroughly researched over the centuries, and
they are also artists who tend to have left their own records,
so, if you really want to know what their compositional intentions
were, then you should have little difficulty finding out.
Your area has incredible resources. The museums
all have art history libraries as well. You might consider calling
them and asking the questions you are asking here.
Good luck,
Paulina
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie_z
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:22 pm
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
Paulina wrote:
I understood you to be talking about Leonardo' s Last Supper,
but, I see not that you are not referring to either Leonardo
nor Michelangelo, but, a work by Cosimo Rosselli, "a competent
but uninspired Florentine" artist, shown at : http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/I.html
Hi Paulina,
Yes you are right. That is not a Michelangelo
painting. Wow. I guess when on the hunt I didn't notice the name
changed when hitting this part of the page. I actually really
like this painting with the figure across from the Jesus, it's
darkened halo and robe.
Yes, we do have some amazing galleries around
here. I haven't been to them in a while so maybe its time for
a visit.
Thanks Paulina,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:30 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Biblia Web Site
dottie,
Yes I have heard of the Sybyls. Steiner describes them as very
elderly and he adds sclerotic women who are often taken over
by elementals. They have moments of the most exaggerated prophesies.
Also, Emil Bock explains the two horns of Moses as depicting
the lighting up of the two-petalled chakra of the forehead. This
developed chakra opposes and overpowers the old atavistic kundalini-rising
clairvoyance of the ancient Egyptian priests in which the two
stems (serpent-like streams) of the kundalini rise up along both
sides of the spine and then spread out over the brain like a
cobra.
rick distasi
----- Original Message -----
From: dottie_z
Hi Rick,
I just found some interesting art by Micheangelo.
Have you ever heard of the Sibyls? I find he knows of the feminine
right down to the horns on Moses head. One page remarks that
Michel painted this due to a mistranslation of the bible:) whereas
the rays of light have been turned into horns. Very interesting.
Anyway, I have a new site for you to check out an interesting
...well here it is: http://198.62.75.1/www1/sistine/K.jpg
I believe we find at least three Jesus
in there and one of them is pointing to a woman while another
Jesus is giving the keys to Peter with the same woman standing
behind him. Well, at least this is how I see it at this time.
Love,
Dottie
Rick:
Thanks for the URL which contains such
great art work.
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie_z
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:44 am
Subject: Re: Biblia Web Site
Rick wrote:
Yes I have heard of the Sybyls. Steiner describes them as
very elderly and he adds sclerotic women who are often taken
over by elementals. They have moments of the most exaggerated
prophesies.
Hi Rick,
Can you tell me where Steiner speaks of them?
Thanks,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:30 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Biblia Web Site
Sorry dottie,
This is one that I pulled strictly from memory. I can't recall
the exact source. Wish I could help.
rick distasi
----- Original Message -----
From: dottie_z
Rick wrote:
Yes I have heard of the Sybyls. Steiner
describes them as very
elderly and he adds sclerotic women who are often taken over
by
elementals. They have moments of the most exaggerated prophesies.
Hi Rick,
Can you tell me where Steiner speaks of
them?
Thanks,
Dottie
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