Three Mothers

From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 4:09 pm
Subject: Three Mothers

Hi Christina and Everyone,

I have been looking at the Egyptian Mysteries this weekend and I have found a very small lecture book by Steiner called Isis and Madonna.

For Christine, I am wondering if you can relate this to your understanding of the three women at the cross.

Steiner " There are in fact images of Isis representing not one Mother but Mothers, three Mothers. In front we have a figure, Isis with the Horus child at her breast, resembling the oldest representations of the Madonna. But behind this figure in a certain Egyptian representations we have another figure, an Isis, bearing on her head the two familiar cow horns and the wings of the hawk, offering the "crux ansata" to the child. We see that what is physical, human, in teh foremost figure is here more spiritualised. Behind there is yet a third figure, bearing a lion's head and representing the third stage of the human soul. this is how these three Isis figures appear, one behind the other. It is an actual fact that our human soul bears in it three natures - a will nature, found in the inmost depths of the being, a feeling nature and a wisdom nature. These are the three soul Mothers; we meet them in the three figures of the Egyptian Isis.

When you were speaking of the three Marys can you see them in this formulation as well?

Where this leads me, and I am pretty sure we part company, is at the Isis Orisis Horus which then leads me to the Magdalene John the Baptist Christ triality. And wouldn't that then lead to the Past Present Future triality?

Happy Sunday,

Dottie

p.s. Thanks to Christina for the reccommendation of the Life Death book by Dr. Steiner. I picked it up yesterday and feel good knowing it is within my reach.

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 4:45 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Three Mothers

Hello Dottie,

Still looking for that binder. Hang in there.

I have been purposefully keeping a bit aloof from your searchings because I think there are a lot of different things that you are mixing up together and it is too much for me right now to get into all of them. But I want to point to something you just said:

Where this leads me, and I am pretty sure we part company, is at the Isis Orisis Horus which then leads me to the Magdalene John the Baptist Christ triality. And wouldn't that then lead to the Past Present Future triality?

I really don't understand the Magdalene John the Baptist Christ idea, especially not in light of anything that I have brought into the discussion. And I can't really go further in trying to explain how I see Mary Magdalene if you insist that she is some sort of replacement for Lazarus - her instead of him. I already said that I feel she is WITH him, as sister in a spiritual as well as physical sense and that the aspect of the "Goddess", (which to me IS the Holy Spirit of God) that she manifested as Mary Magdalene was as the Feminine Divine Principle of the Will Forces. Maria Sophia - the Feminine Divine Principle of the Thinking Forces/ Eva Maria - the Feminine Divine Principle of the Feeling Forces. I don't see in any way a trinity composed of Mary Magdalene/ John the Baptist/ Christ. And I must insist that what ever I "see" it is through my thinking and feeling, not through any kind of clairvoyance. I am interpreting the way you discuss this issue as coming from your "seeing" in a clairvoyant sense. I don't have that faculty, so I can't respond in kind.

On the other hand, I think that both Mary Magdalene as an individual and Lazarus (overshadowed by John the Baptist) as an individual were both "beloved" of Christ, both were initiated, perhaps in different ways and both were present at the foot of the cross. I "get" that Christ created a "family" of "Mary" and "John" out of the Word, as opposed (forever) to the family of bloodline relationships. The now and future "family" is unified by the spirit, not by blood or national/ clan ties. Which speaks to the inherent "evil" in the whole Illuminati tradition of bloodline from Jesus Christ. Perhaps Jesus and Mary Magdalene had an "intimate" relationship to one of the highest levels possible between male & female incarnations, but I don't think it had to be or was "intimate" in a sexual sense, carnally. Personally, and I want to be really, really careful about saying this, but I don't think that Christ Jesus was inherently, or totally, male. I believe that he was in a body strongly composed of both male and female elements, representing "Man" as a unity. This is a very tricky, easily misunderstood and easily corrupted concept. But I don't believe that he had any need to respond to either Mary Magdalene or Lazarus, for that matter in a sexual sense. The unity of souls and spirits is such a powerful experience. The unity of physical bodies is merely a dim reflection at its very best. But these ideas are very foreign to our sexually oriented culture, which desperately looks for unity, but is distracted and misguided. Not that I think sex is a "sin" but we as a culture look for something in it which no longer is there. (It was in Atlantis, I do know from experience). The "problem" with sex today is that it keeps us busy looking for this something and keeps us from looking elsewhere, to soul and spirit unity. It is a big distraction based on the materialistic point of view.

As to the Past, Present and Future issue, I think I went into my perspective on this already in terms of Father/ Son/ Holy Spirit with the Feminine Divine being "of the Future" - the Transformative Principle of God. I'm not sure that I can lay it out any more clearly than I have done.

As to the book you are reading, it sounds terrific, but I don't have it, so I can't comment. I have "Ancient Myths and the New Isis Mystery" but I haven't found the description that you mentioned. I'll look again, though.

Happy Second Advent Sunday,
Christine

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Christine wrote:
I have been purposefully keeping a bit aloof from your searchings because I think there are a lot of different things that you are mixing up together and it is too much for me right now to get into all of them.

Hi Christine,

I know you have been keep aloof and I understand that completely.

Christine:
And I can't really go further in trying to explain how I see Mary Magdalene if you insist that she is some sort of replacement for Lazarus - her instead of him.

Dottie

I am trying to work this out Christine. I know it is more than where we have been led and that this mystery speaks to something deeper. I don't mean to replace Lazarus and maybe in Kims understanding there is something I can find that speaks to what I feel is not being spoken of.

Christine
I already said that I feel she is WITH him, as sister in a spiritual as well as physical sense and that the aspect of the "Goddess", (which to me IS the Holy Spirit of God)

Dottie

Steiner speaks of the Holy Spirit and Sophia as two different forces. He calls the Holy Spirit the cosmic ego.

Steiner: "And when the Virgin Sophia encounters the cosmic ego, the universal ego that brings about illumination, the pupil is surrounded by light, spiritual light. This second power that approaches the Virgin Sophia is called - even today still - the Holy Spirit in esoteric Christianity. Therefore according to esoteric Christianity, it is correct to say that through his proceesses of initiation the Christian essoterist attains the purification and cleansing of his astral body; he makes his astral body into the Virgin Sophia and is illuminated from above - if you wish-, you may call it overshadowed - by the Holy Spirit, by the cosmic, universal ego."

Christine
I don't see in any way a trinity composed of Mary Magdalene/ John the Baptist/ Christ. And I must insist that what ever I "see" it is through my thinking and feeling, not through any kind of clairvoyance. I am interpreting the way you discuss this issue as coming from your "seeing" in a clairvoyant sense.

Dottie

No, I am not clairevoyant in this sense. I sense into people and so forth and have that ability but not a 'seeing' of the things I am looking at. Although at various times I have had visions but they were just confirmations of where my thinking had led me. It is my thinking aligned I believe with something I can not name or explain. I do not recognize it as something different than I although it does feel like something more than me in a sense.

Christine
As to the Past, Present and Future issue, I think I went into my perspective on this already in terms of Father/ Son/ Holy Spirit with the Feminine Divine being "of the Future" - the Transformative Principle of God. I'm not sure that I can lay it out any more clearly than I have done.

Dottie

No, I understand what you have said before. My particular issue is this rising for some reason. And I am able to trace it back to Egypt, and I believe past the Greeks and the Hebrews, I can trace this trinity back it feels to me.

Christine
Happy Second Advent Sunday,

Dottie

What specifically is the Second Advent?

Thanks Christine,

Dottie

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From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 5:57 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Dottie,

It's the second Sunday in Advent. There are four Advent Sundays before Christmas.

I found the binder - I'll try to scan it for you this week at work.

: ) Christine

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From: Joel Wendt
Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:09 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Three Mothers

Dear Dottie,

With regard to your finding indications of a feminine Trinity, to compliment the masculine one,...

In the anonymously written Meditations on the Tarot: a journey into Christian Hermeticism, the author writes as follows:

"For just as the Word became flesh in Jesus Christ, so did the Bath-Kol, the "Daughter of the Voice", become flesh in Mary-Sophia. The Church worships her as the Virgin, as the Mother and as the celestial Queen, corresponding to the Mother, the Daughter and the "Virgin of Israel" of the Cabbala, and the Sophianic Trinity - Mother, Daughter and Holy Soul - mentioned above."

This "above" included a diagram as follows:

Father

Daughter Holy Soul

Son Holy Spirit

Mother

You make two triangles, one for each Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit; and, Mother, Daughter, Holy Soul). These two intersecting triangles, one pointing up (Father) and one pointing down (Mother), when combined make the well known Hebrew symbol - the seal of Solomon (a hexagram).

This also connects to the division of Creation into Heaven and Earth, with the Father at the apex of Heaven, and the Mother at the apex of the Earth.

The Catholic gesture of making the sign of the Cross, can be reversed, so as to include a second crossing gesture...so we do (in making the sign of the Cross starting from above), Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and in making it a second time starting from below, Mother, Daughter, Holy Soul.

In my view, all the literature on the Goddess, the Mystery of Mary and so forth that you have been reading has its spiritual origin in that we are on the Cusp of the Divine Mother's Return to more prominent recognition, coupled with a kind of long term social/cultural over turning of the masculine dominance of our ideas of the Godhead.

In point of fact, it is not possible to deal with our Shadow (the Double in anthro-speak), without the aid of the Mother as an intercessor. She is the guiding and limiting Power, which contains and holds inside quite specific rules all the beings of the hierarchies of the left (the 8 inner spheres of the Earth, when passed through to their "other side" turns into the Realm of the Mother, which Steiner describes someplace as a Golden Sphere - This is also where Christ went on Saturday, following His crucifixion..."He descended into Hell, and on the Third day [Sunday] He rose again")

She is Below, while the Father is Above, and it would seem that just as the Father is only accessible through the Son, so the Mother is only truly accessible through the Daughter (as an aspect of initiation science, although by Grace anything is possible), which I believe to be the Divine Sophia to which Steiner frequently turned our attention, and after which Anthroposophia is aptly named.

If you go by the figure above, the Daughter is closer to the Father, so that Steiner could easily have placed Sophia in the Celestial Realm.

There seems to be some evidence that given the time and the place where Steiner's work was being received, he could only hint in various ways at the work of the Mother. There is also some evidence that She is/has a special relationship to the Americas, and certainly to the Southwest of the United States.

A great Evil was born here, near where I live, in New Mexico at Alamogordo, with the creation of the Atomic Bomb in 1945, as the last phase of the Spiritual Event of the Twentieth Century, as described by Jesaiah Ben-Aharon in his book of that name. I can't imagine the Divine Mother not being drawn near such a place and time, seeking to infuse it with her own forces of healing.

You can get into some of this on my website, where I have been able to place some of Stephen Clarke's remarkable researches, at: http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/clarke4.html

warm regards,
joel

On Sun, 2003-12-07 at 17:09, dottie zold wrote:
Hi Christina and Everyone,

I have been looking at the Egyptian Mysteries this weekend and I have found a very small lecture book by Steiner called Isis and Madonna.

For Christine, I am wondering if you can relate this to your understanding of the three women at the cross.

Steiner " There are in fact images of Isis representing not one Mother but Mothers, three Mothers. In front we have a figure, Isis with the Horus child at her breast, resembling the oldest representations of the Madonna. But behind this figure in a certain Egyptian representations we have another figure, an Isis, bearing on her head the two familiar cow horns and the wings of the hawk, offering the "crux ansata" to the child. We see that what is physical, human, in teh foremost figure is here more spiritualised. Behind there is yet a third figure, bearing a lion's head and representing the third stage of the human soul. this is how these three Isis figures appear, one behind the other. It is an actual fact that our human soul bears in it three natures - a will nature, found in the inmost depths of the being, a feeling nature and a wisdom nature. These are the three soul Mothers; we meet them in the three figures of the Egyptian Isis.

When you were speaking of the three Marys can you see them in this formulation as well?

Where this leads me, and I am pretty sure we part company, is at the Isis Orisis Horus which then leads me to the Magdalene John the Baptist Christ triality. And wouldn't that then lead to the Past Present Future triality?

Happy Sunday,

Dottie

p.s. Thanks to Christina for the reccommendation of the Life Death book by Dr. Steiner. I picked it up yesterday and feel good knowing it is within my reach.

--
Joel Wendt

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:50 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Three Mothers

Dear Joel,

I just want to say thank you. I have been chasing this mystery in a pretty vocal, face to the wind, kind of way. Mostly because it felt the inspirations I was divining to were considered crazy and so forth by some. Yet it is these same some which really allowed me to press forward. Its funny because without them I probably would not have smelled it as strongly as I did and I am so grateful for that.

I do have a feeling for a third trinity that speaks specifically to our own I and that is Mother Father Child. And this mystery I do believe unfolded in Mary and in Jesus.

This is just a quick note as it takes a little pressure off me in a sense that allows me to sit back and say 'hey its alright, see'. And I appreciate it.

Love,
Dottie

p.s. quick mention of where my studies are right now and that is in what is considered 'hell'. We meet Isis's sister there and it is most moving.

Joel wrote:
With regard to your finding indications of a feminine Trinity, to compliment the masculine one,...

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:24 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Three Mothers

Hi Dottie
Have you read Search for the New Isis, the Divine Sophia: The Quest for the Isis-Sophia ?
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/QuIsis_index.html
Kim

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From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Dear Kim,

Been thinking. Thinking about John and this Lazarus rising. Is this at the very point that John is said to have been brought to the twelve as the oversoul in a sense? Is it this exact moment or is it at his beheading?

Thanks,
dottie

Kim wrote:
Hi Dottie
Have you read Search for the New Isis, the Divine Sophia: The Quest for the Isis-Sophia ? http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/QuIsis_index.html
Kim

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From: radistasi
Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:02 am
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

In his lecture cycle and study of the Gospel of Mark (Basel, Sept. 1912) in Lecture VI Steiner speaks of John the Baptist as the group soul of the Twelve Apostles:

This Elijah-soul is at the same time the soul of the Old Testament people, as it enters the Baptist and lives in him. When he is imprisoned and then beheaded by Herod, what happened then to his soul? This we have already indicated. His soul left the body and worked on as an aura; and into the domain of this aura Christ Jesus entered. Where then is the soul of Elijah, the soul of John the Baptist? The Mark Gospel indicates this clearly enough. The soul of John the Baptist, of Elijah, becomes the group soul of the Twelve; it lives, and continues to live in the Twelve.

rick distasi

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold wrote:
Dear Kim,

Been thinking. Thinking about John and this Lazarus rising. Is this at the very point that John is said to have been brought to the twelve as the oversoul in a sense? Is it this exact moment or is it at his beheading?

Thanks,
dottie

Kim wrote:

Hi Dottie
Have you read Search for the New Isis, the Divine Sophia: The Quest for the Isis-Sophia ? http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/QuIsis_index.html
Kim

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From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:55 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Rick,

Thanks for this. I am wondering if you recall Steiner ever speaking of Elisha? In the bible he asks for two parts of Elijah when he passes away which has had me thinking for a while. I think I have read most of Steiners Christology books but I have do not recall any Elisha.

My other question is what are your thoughts regarding this Eliha soul and what he stood for in the Old Testament?

This great duo created great healings of such I have not heard of before in the Old Testament. They literally compare to those in the New Testament.

Ponderingly yours,

Dottie

Rick wrote:

In his lecture cycle and study of the Gospel of Mark (Basel, Sept. 1912) in Lecture VI Steiner speaks of John the Baptist as the group soul of the Twelve Apostles:

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From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:32 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Kim wrote:
Have you read Search for the New Isis, the Divine Sophia: The Quest for the Isis-Sophia ? http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/QuIsis_index.html

Hi Kim,

No I have not. I have a book on order at my new Steiner bookstore, regarding Isis, Sophia and Mary, and by the way they ship for free. I told them I would let AT know:)

Have you read Moon Under Her Feet? Its very interesting how I feel to 'flesh' out Magdalene. I sense her different yet much the same in this little book that humanizes them all. It actually allows us to see them as humans versus how they serve our wants and needs to enlighten ourselves. There is a real human quality, which, whether or not you hold this story has any truth, there is enough that allows one to go deeper within regarding the Christ spirit.

Interesting as well, this little story pulls up Judas in such a way that begs for us to 'know' him. I don't go where she goes or see how she sees him, however, it does indeed ask me to know him versus using him for what I need. I guess that was the overall feeling of the book for me. Also it is Magdalene that goes to meet the hidden sister that she has neglected. If you are interested I shall pull up a few lines that shows the depth of inner pain when we confront that which we have neglected of ourselves. And it is so powerful and humbling to know and love that which we consider hateful.

So, she has the Magdalene 'risin' as well as Lazarus and Judas. Quite interesting.

Have you read any of Valentin Tombergs work? I really really like him.

Love,
Dottie

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:12 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Dottie,

I'm sure that somewhere Steiner has spoken of Elisa but I don't have anything at the moment to which I can refer. I did a search on elib.com and came up with nothing. However, we know that Elijah passed his mantle onto Elisa which I presume was the astral body and etheric body of Elijah.

Other examples would be: Isaac passes his mantle to Jacob; Zarathustra passes his etheric mantle onto Moses and his astral mantle onto Hermes.

In Chapter 2 verses 1-18 from the Fourth Book of Kings a wonderful bridge is placed before us that connects the Old Testament to the New Testament. This also draws our attention to a purposeful similarity of the passing of the mantle of Elijah to Elisa at the Jordan River as Elijah then ascends into the spiritual world carried by "a fiery chariot and fiery horses" to the Baptism in the Jordan of Jesus of Nazareth by John the Baptist when Christ descends with the Mantle of the spiritual world and incarnates into the body of Jesus of Nazareth.

rick distasi

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From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:20 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Rick wrote:
However, we know that Elijah passed his mantle onto Elisa which I presume was the astral body and etheric body of Elijah. Other examples would be: Isaac passes his mantle to Jacob; Zarathustra passes his etheric mantle onto Moses and his astral mantle onto Hermes.

Hi Rick,

I am going to search the b=ible tonight:) and I am wondering if the word 'mantle' is the word used? I sense such a great love story between these two. For Elisha to have 'seen' the passing of Elija must have been a day to be remembered for all time. Just as the Jesus the Christ passing was as well.

Rick wrote:
In Chapter 2 verses 1-18 from the Fourth Book of Kings a wonderful bridge is placed before us that connects the Old Testament to the New Testament. This also draws our attention to a purposeful similarity of the passing of the mantle of Elijah to Elisa at the Jordan River as Elijah then ascends into the spiritual world carried by "a fiery chariot and fiery horses" to the Baptism in the Jordan of Jesus of Nazareth by John the Baptist when Christ descends with the Mantle of the spiritual world and incarnates into the body of Jesus of Nazareth.

Dottie

Thanks for this Rick. I've only read two books of Kings. I will check this out tonight. Have you ever read what the words Johanan means?

All good things,
Dottie

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:57 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Dottie asked:

Have you ever read what the words Johanan means?

Ed Smith gives us a descriptive analysis of the name John in the following:

"The name John came from the Hebrew Johanan which combined Yahweh or Yah with ‘Anna’. And the ‘Anna’ meant ‘grace’. The Christ event was an event of grace, as we find in the Prologue of John's Gospel. The name ‘John’ was unique in New Testament times because then it could be connected only with the source of grace, the Christ. In the New Testament, the name ‘John’ had to describe one who was a forerunner or announcer of the Christ. This is why so much emphasis is laid on the fact that the Baptist had to be called ‘John’ in the birth story in Luke's Gospel."

rick distasi

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From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:06 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Rick wrote:
"The name John came from the Hebrew Johanan which combined Yahweh or Yah with 'Anna'. And the 'Anna' meant 'grace'. The Christ event was an event of grace, as we find in the Prologue of John's Gospel. The name 'John' was unique in New Testament times because then it could be connected only with the source of grace, the Christ. In the New Testament, the name 'John' had to describe one who was a forerunner or announcer of the Christ. This is why so much emphasis is laid on the fact that the Baptist had to be called 'John' in the birth story in Luke's Gospel."

Hi Rick,

See, something like this inspires me to the feminine and masucline principles as One. This is exactly the kind of statement that leads me to contemplate the mystery that has been hidden, or rather uncovered is a better word, within the Lazarus rising.

Knowing that the feminine divine has been hidden in a sense wouldn't something like this perk up our 'ears'? I mean I get that mostly Steiner and his contemperaries spoke of it in an all patriarch kind of way however I think todays students must find where these things intertwine. One it is all around us and two it is inevitable.

Thanks for the quote. I really dig that you can pull these things up. How long have you been studying Steiner and what moves you the most is my thought?

Love,

Dottie

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:33 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Dottie, you asked:

How long have you been studying Steiner and what moves you the most is my thought?

I have been studying Steiner for 20 years and often times I still feel like a new student to Anthroposophy. What moves me the most at the current moment are the relationships among the Christ, John the Baptist, Lazarus and the Apostles. Of course understanding Mary Magdalene is crucial in all of this also.

In regard to the feminine and masculine principles as one can discern in the name Johann the understanding of these two principles is paramount. The feminine principle and Sophia mystery as a whole is a mystery knowledge that is beginning to emerge from the veil but its fuller comprehension and disclosure may not truly become a reality until we are well into the 6th. cultural epoch; in other words, about 2 to 3 thousand years from now. I see it as a gradual progression to its understanding.

rick distasi

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Rick wrote:
The feminine principle and Sophia mystery as a whole is a mystery knowledge that is beginning to emerge from the veil but its fuller comprehension and disclosure may not truly become a reality until we are well into the 6th. cultural epoch; in other words, about 2 to 3 thousand years from now. I see it as a gradual progression to its understanding.

Hi Rick,

In looking at twenty years I am wondering what was it that called your attention to Dr. Steiners work. For me it was a book called ArchAngel Michael, His Mission and Ours. It took me almost three years to get through the book but by the ending I realized that I was one of Michaels people or so it seemed to me. And then one day I decided if the author had any other works and was shocked to find he indeed did and many.

I recently found a book called Goddess Meditations. I was shocked and so happy to find Steiner referenced within. When I looked at who the publishers were it all came together : Trinosophia Press:)) Anyhow it is an amazing book with many of the Wisdom writings from the Bible and including Bacon, Steiner, Gabriel, Novalis, Goethe and others. I think it leads one into what others contemplated regarding Sophia and I find it allows one to sink within the heart of understanding. And it is actually there I believe we find Her.

A thought just came wondering if the reason I see this as ChristSophia is because this is the duo before the fall. I guess this is where I get to find this out.

Here are a few excerpts I thought to share:

Now the Tripple Goddess calls out, not the ancient injunction of the Egyptian Mysteries, "I am the past, present, and the future; no one has lifted my veil and lived," but a new Invocation of Sophia (given by R. Steiner): "I am the past, the present, and the future; ALL MUST LIFT MY VEIL TO LIVE.

Of Solomon

Wisdom is bright and unfading,
And she is easily seen by those who love her,
And found by those who search for her.
She forestalls those who desire her, by making herself known first.
The man who rises early to seek her will not have to toil,
For he will find her sitting at his gates.
For to think of her is the highest understanding,
And the man who is vigilant for her sake will soon be free from care.
For she goes about in search of those who are worthy of her,
And she graciously appears to them in their paths,
And meets them in every thought.

It is an amazing book. I think it may be out of print but if you could find it I think it is a book that inspires us to divine to the highest heights through the poems of the greatest masters of our time. To sit with these words and to know of the men who went searching for, and found her is just humbling. And you can see just by their endeavors she was found.

In your thought of this being told or rather known in a few thousand years I think this is too long. It seems to me that this may be when the final fight does indeed come about. For me I sense this in Steiners book The Temple Legend. In this book he speaks to a womans only group for the first time. Here he lays it on the line why the Feminine Divine has been hidden. He touches upon this in the Isis Mysteries as well. I think this lecture is a worthy one to look at again to understand how we came to be without Mother God and her Daughters. Its funny because he took a great risk in speaking on this mystery as it was forbidden by the Freemasons. When thinking upon this lecture I better understand why he didn't speak as freely regarding this subject. It's funny because I have always said he has led me and now I feel very much led to find these words that validate the path I find myself walking.

I keep coming back to this Lazarus because there is something in there I am led to uncover. Even unto the book I mentioned the other day; Covenant of the Heart by Tomberg. Here the whole book is on the raising of Lazarus. I didn't realize this until yesterday. Every chapter is about this rising. And then buying Goddess Meditations and finding Dr. Steiners name therein. And it never ceases to amaze me when these kind of connections and how they all lead to the Feminine Divine. I am such a doubting Thomas. I really am.

Sometimes I get the feeling that Dr. Steiners students don't have to much time for Sophia. Or maybe it is just that I think that is the most important and expect everyone would be so exicted to find her. I tend to get a little sad about this because it seems like this is our purpose. And I know we all have different purposes and so forth and I guess it can seem to be a bit judgemental on my part.

Good Friday,

Dottie

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:42 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hello Dottie

Have you read Moon Under Her Feet? Its very interesting how I feel to 'flesh' out Magdalene. I sense her different yet much the same in this little book that humanizes them all. It actually allows us to see them as humans versus how they serve our wants and needs to enlighten ourselves. There is a real human quality, which, whether or not you hold this story has any truth, there is enough that allows one to go deeper within regarding the Christ spirit. No I have not read It.

Interesting as well, this little story pulls up Judas in such a way that begs for us to 'know' him. I don't go where she goes or see how she sees him, however, it does indeed ask me to know him versus using him for what I need. I guess that was the overall feeling of the book for me. Also it is Magdalene that goes to meet the hidden sister that she has neglected. If you are interested I shall pull up a few lines that shows the depth of inner pain when we confront that which we have neglected of ourselves. And it is so powerful and humbling to know and love that which we consider hateful. Yes, please do. Concerning Judas: Have you thought about his feeling as being used for that role of his?

So, she has the Magdalene 'risin' as well as Lazarus and Judas. Quite interesting.

Have you read any of Valentin Tombergs work? I really really like him. No, I have just recently heard about him.

If Lazarus was Hiram Abiff and the Temple Legend is right and if I am right in seeing Magdalene and Lazarus as twin souls, then it would look like that Magdalene could have been Balkis, The Quen of Sheba. Magdalene is named the seeker of wisdom and Balkis wisited Solomon because of his wisdom.

I have read a lot around the Golgata mysteri the last days. I have had a few problems with the Adam 1 and 2. I have found out, throug Smith and Steiner, that Adam 2 is the Pollonian Bothisatwa and sistersoul to Adam 1 (that is John the Baptist). John the Baptist was the first fully incarnation of Adam 1. Previous incarnations (as Elijah and others) has been like remote control (as like the Bothisatwas incarnations, before Buddha), and later as Raphael has only been partial incarnations.

Love,
Kim

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:07 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Kim wrote:
If Lazarus was Hiram Abiff and the Temple Legend is right and if I am right in seeing Magdalene and Lazarus as twin souls, then it would look like that Magdalene could have been Balkis, The Quen of Sheba. Magdalene is named the seeker of wisdom and Balkis wisited Solomon because of his wisdom.

Dottie

I am right there with you Kim:) I'm off to lunch and am reading this now. Here's my question for you: where in the future do we see this Hiram?

I will look closer at your post later on. Thanks.

Love,= Dottie

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:32 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Kim wrote:
Concerning Judas: Have you thought about his feeling as being used for that role of his?

Hi Kim,

Well, that is an interesting question. In my mind I see him sacrificing for the Christ. And I have held this view ever since looking at Satan entering him 'after' Jesus passed the sop'... to me his was the ultimate human sacrifice other than that of Jesus. He was the midwife to Christianity in my understanding. He must have sweated blood as well.

And I never thought to tap into Judas until this reading. I am working on a painting right now so maybe later on in the week I will. It is so interesting that one can really go into a meditative heart space and take a 'looksee' about, waiting and watching what comes up and so forth.

Kim
If Lazarus was Hiram Abiff and the Temple Legend is right

Dottie

Pardon me breaking this up here but I want to understand. Where does Dr. STeiner say that Hiram Abiff and Lazarus are one and the same?

Kim
and if I am right in seeing Magdalene and Lazarus as twin souls, then it would look like that Magdalene could have been Balkis, The Quen of Sheba.

Dottie

Well, if you meditate on this she will come to you Kim. She will tell you. I do not know so much of the OT although it seems this is where I am headed in order to find the previous incarnations of certain beings. Of the three women you can sense into being the Crone, Maiden or Daughter who does she feel/think like to you? When we think on Solomon who do we come to? Who does Steiner relate to this figure? He obviously is someone that has partaken of the Sophia without a doubt. It is very clear in his writings he knows of her.

This Hiram feels like an 'older' being than how I see this Lazarus. (well I can't actually see him but I am imagining him to be able to be open to the idea of his physical existance) He was a catalyst for the transition from the third to the fourth post Atlantean period (as if I know what that means:) well i get it but not on a real real intellectual level). He calls to mind Elija for me. Oh, isn't that funny. Once again I am led to Magdalene and the Baptist. Oh well, we'll just have to see this thing through:)

Kim
Magdalene is named the seeker of wisdom and Balkis wisited Solomon because of his wisdom.

I have read a lot around the Golgata mysteri the last days. I have had a few problems with the Adam 1 and 2. I have found out, throug Smith and Steiner, that Adam 2 is the Pollonian Bothisatwa and sistersoul to Adam 1 (that is John the Baptist).

Dottie

In what section of Smith have you read of this and where in Steiners work. This Adam 1 and 2 both are from after the sexes split?

Whats interesting to me is that Hiram was asked by Sheba to see the workers who had worked on his Temple. Solomon said no and at that very moment Hiram presented the workers. It seems to me he did what Steiner did by outing the Freemasons. In a sense he allowed a woman to view that which was unheard of at the time. It is clear that he felt a knowing of her and therefore it was natural for him to unveil this secret. Right after this he dies I believe. Whomever this Hiram was he was way old. I mean way old. But Solomom does not feel very old. He actually feels quite young.

I am open to maybe there is indeed a physical Lazarus. Are you open to the idea that maybe there is not?

Love to you,
Dottie

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:23 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Dottie

I thought of the reincarnations after the Judas incarnation.

The incarnations of Lazarus is mentioned many places by Smith, especially in the Widows's Son, Page 3. In that chapter he also gives a long description of Elijah.

Let us now consider how that applies in the case of the one known as Hiram-Abiff. Whether or not he was the same entelechy as Cain and/or Tubal-cain, we see from anthroposophy that his incarnations included those known as Hiram-Lazarus/John-Christian Rosenkreutz5-Count St. Germain; and there is the distinct probability that Joshua7 should be added to the front of this line. If Hiram, through his ancestry if not in fact his own prior incarnations, had brought the earthly craft of bronze work to humanity on its descending path, in the last three incarnations listed he clearly began to take the human being back on the ascending path of spiritual development.
http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/chapters/Widow's%20Son/widowsson3.htm

I understand your feling about Lazarus, because his personality is difficult to grasp. His later incarnation as Christian Rosencreutz is equally difficult.

The personality of John the Baptist and Elijah feels right, and I don't see the Lazarus personality as John the Baptist.

Magdalene and Balkis I feel as compatible.
The “Queen of Sheba” who came to King Solomon [see Lk 11,31 and Mt 12,42] was also the bearer of wisdom from above; she was the representative of those predestined to possess, by inheritance, the dim, shadowy clairvoyance with which all men were endowed in the Atlantean epoch.
http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/chapters/Three%20Days%20Journey/threedaysjourney3.htm

I am not sure that Hiram is older than Solomon, but Hiram is more connected with the physical world and has more personal wisdom than Solomon.

Hiram and Rosencreutz is also compatible in their goal, CR is building the immaterial temple where Hiram built the physical temple. To do what CR did he has to have a background in the Golgatha Mysteri, and Lazarus/John is a logical precursor.

Another possible candidate is Adam2/Apollonian bodhisattva/Jesus of Nazareth (until 12) but as CR is mentioned to have many incarnations between Golgatha and his education, it is not likely, because a bodhisattva only need one physical incarnation to become buddha.

The Adam 2 as sister soul to Adam 1 is mentioned by Smith:

What was here being told was that the fallen soul of Adam caused the embryo, during its last trimester in Elizabeth’s womb, to react to the proximity of not only its unfallen sister-soul, the Nathan Soul, but also of the unfallen sister-soul of Eve, the Eternal Feminine, in Mary, both of whom Elizabeth calls “Blessed.”
in http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/chapters/Nativity/nativity5.htm
and in http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/chapters/Nativity/nativity7.htm .

And

If one considers the above symbol in the light of these remarks, it is quite apparent that it portrays the Fall, salvation, and ascension of the human being, which is the theme of the Bible from Gen 1 to Rev 22, the ultimate application of the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the story of two sons, the “prodigal” first Adam, who fell, and the second Adam, his sister soul, who, by serving the Christ, brought him to his senses and made his return possible. The first Adam was “the son of God” (Lk 3,38) and the second was “the Son of God.” The reality of the Fall, redemption and eventual ascension is central to the teaching of anthroposophy.

from http://www.bibleandanthroposophy.com/Smith/main/burning_bush/charts_tabs/i87.html .
Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't. The only problem I have with this is: Where is Eve?

Love,
Kim

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:29 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Kim wrote:
The incarnations of Lazarus is mentioned many places by Smith, especially in the Widows's Son, Page 3. In that chapter he also gives a long description of Elijah.

Hey Kim,

Okay. I found Hiram/Hirum in Kings and Chronicles so far. Hiram is noted as the Widows Son. Now the Widows son mystery goes at least as far back as Isis. Horus is a Widows Son through Osiris/Isis. So, if we hold that Lazarus is indeed Hiram then he should already have been initiated into the Mysteries. He would not have need of a raising in the sense that Lazarus has had for he has already had it in an early incarnation. So this leads me to Elijah as Hiram so far. I do believe however by how it is written that Hiram and the Queen of Sheba could be twin souls in a sense that you speak of. They seem to immediately know one another with just a look and Solomon offers them both the same gifts of all his bounty. They both also bring the same gifts to Solomon that will allow him to build his Temple to the Lord.

I will check the Widows Son in the book you mention by Smith.

In looking at the Jesus incarnations what do we have so far according to Dr. Steiner? What about the Solomon man?

Kim
I understand your feling about Lazarus, because his personality is difficult to grasp. His later incarnation as Christian Rosencreutz is equally difficult.

Dottie

I can easily get Christian that has never been a problem. It is this Lazarus and I do not even detect a personality and not even unto Count Saint Germaine.

Kim
Magdalene and Balkis I feel as compatible.

Dottie

Well I wonder now that we are this far back where we may find this Balkis again behind the line of this time or rather in front of the line if the last is the first and the first is the last.

Kim
Adam 1 incarnated and thus came under the influence of Lucifer where Adam 2 didn't. The only problem I have with this is: Where is Eve?

Dottie

Yup, would be my question as well. Have you had a chance to look at the 'women only' lecture of Dr. Steiner in The Temple Lodge? The whole Freemason stream and what they hoped to achieve is pretty stunning regarding the male and female.

I will have to read where you are in the bible and anthroposophy books otherwise I can not fully understand. One thing I would like to know is does Dr. Steiner literally say that Hiram and Lazarus are one and the same. I don't recall that he does but if you know of a lecture where this is said specifically I would like to take a looksee. Until then I will look at Mr. Smiths book again.

I laid down for a second and felt myself whirling about within my head trying to hold onto this. And that is when it hit me about Lazarus not needing to be initiated in the sense he was if he was indeed this Hiram. I am going to have to make a choice of which one I wish to follow otherwise I will be half mast to the wind.

Love to you,

Dottie

p.s. I do not know enough about these Adam 1s and twos and I will just have to allow that to slowly come about.

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 7:00 am
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Joel wrote:
There is also some evidence that She is/has a special relationship to the Americas, and certainly to the Southwest of the United States.

Dear Joel,

What about Lucifer?

Yours,

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

At 01:29 14.12.2003, Dottie wrote:

Okay. I found Hiram/Hirum in Kings and Chronicles so far. Hiram is noted as the Widows Son. Now the Widows son mystery goes at least as far back as Isis. Horus is a Widows Son through Osiris/Isis.

The soul was always known as the 'mother' in all esoteric (mystical) teachings; the instructor was the 'father'. [Compare the recently quoted article about Bob Dylan's esotericism by Michael A. Miller at http://www.uncletaz.com/thiefspoke.html ] Father and mother, Osiris and Isis, those are the two forces present in the soul: the instructor, representing the divine which flows directly into man, Osiris, he that is the father; the soul itself, Isis, the one who conceives, receives the divine, the spiritual into itself, she is the mother. During the fifth Root Race, the father withdraws. The soul is widowed. Humanity is thrown back onto itself. It must find the light of truth within its own soul in order to act as its own guide. Everything of a soul nature has always been expressed in terms of the feminine. Therefore the feminine element - which exists only in a germinal state today and will later be fully developed - this self-directing feminine principle which is no longer confronted by the divine fructifyer, is called by Mani the "Widow." And therefore he calls himself 'Son of the Widow'.

("The Temple Legend - Freemasonry & Related Occult Movements", lecture 6: "Manicheism" - Berlin 11. Nov. 1904, GA 93)

The previous lecture 5, "The Mystery Known to Rosicrucians," tells us about the ancestry of Hiram Abiff. Another version is told in the notes of this volume. I have summed it all up in an article:

http://www.uncletaz.com/templelegend.html

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:32 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Kim wrote:
The personality of John the Baptist and Elijah feels right, and I don't see the Lazarus personality as John the Baptist.

Hi Kim,

Well, then I believe you are not in line with how AP says Dr. Steiner sees this. It seems to be that John the Baptist and Lazarus are now one and the same in a sense according to how Anthroposophists hold this. Unless you are saying that you can see John the Baptist and Elijah have a connecting line as one and the Lazarus wasn't apart of that up until the raising of Lazarus.

However I must say what this male on male brings up for me is that it never happens this way not even in nature. It is most unnatural. Not even the Christ could do it without both principles I believe. And that must be part of what is true for me regarding the ChristSophia as one.

Kim wrote:
Magdalene and Balkis I feel as compatible.

Dottie

I can see how that would appear to be so however I have not had the time to really look. I am reading a book called The Gospel of Mary Magdalene. It seems that this Gospel was actually found in 1896 some fifty years before the Nag Hammadi Library books were found. They included this Gospel in their translations as it seemed to fit well with the time period and so forth. What is interesting is that it really is only now that this book has come about not even until really the 50s did it become known on a larger scale.

In here I find an interesting comment that did not occur to me earlier regarding the various women in the Bible. It seems Pope Gregory is the one who deemed Mary Magdalene a 'whore' only to have his version repudiated by the Vatican in 1969. It seems that the word used for 'whore' in Greek was actually 'porin' was not although used in the Luke Gospel it was not the word used to name the woman of seven devils that was healed. That word was 'harmartolos' which actually means one who has transgressed the law and even one who has not paid her taxes. Yet the church did not correct this in the regular sermons that were spoken on Sundays or whenever they met.

An even more interesting Jesus comment is this from the Pistis Sophia 193:

Where shall I be, there will be also my twelve ministers. But Mary Magdalene,John and the Virgin will tower over all my disciples and over all men who shall recieve the mysteries in teh Ineffable. And they will be on my right and on my left. And I am they, and they are I.

Now, Kim, I have to say, it is beyond me how it can be that a Lazarus exists yet is never mentioned in the Nag Hammadi. If this person was so important how can it be, unless your understanding of twin souls comes through, that he is never mentioned within this great book? The whole idea 'oh he was so secretive and so forth, not from you, just doesn't add up. It just doesn't.

A thought came to me regarding this seven devils dilema. It is an Isis mystery. There are seven gates to hell. And at each of these gates one must leave something. The first thing according to this little book The Moon Under Her Feet is the crown. Now I have an Egyptian Mystery book where I am going to check all this out but it does seem to speak to the chakras shutting down or dying. And where they go is to the sister or maybe it could be called the Mothers as I see the Crone there. This is what I believe and Steiner says Goethe was speaking of in a sense in my understanding.

So, the point being we have an initiation of the Magdalene is how I see it. She was healed. Which according to this book one would have to go through the seven gates of hell to come up through the seven virgins of light.

And what I love about this book is I just found a reference of Dr. Steiner. For me these are little hellos everything is all good. It is reference to the pure and ideal image: eidolon. And interesting is the take on Noli me tangere. Instead of it saying 'do not touch me' they have the original Greek version "Me mou aptou" which they say a better translation would be "Don't hold onto me" or Don't cling to me." So in essence it would be 'Do not cling to me, for I am not yet ascended to the Father.'

Anyhow, these are my thoughts on this Saturn Eve. I love that we found Hiram.

Love,
Dottie

p.s. I was going to give you a bit from The Moon Under Her Feet by Clysta Kinstler however I realize the piece I was thinking of is pretty graphic. I am not so sure everyone on list would appreciate this initiation. I could send you the book if you like as I am through with it.

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:25 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Dottie,

You asked what brought me to Anthroposophy. My initial introduction was a book titled, "The Secret Book of Revelation" by Gilles Quispell which is probably out of print now. The book is a study of the Book of Revelation along with much of the art work that has been done over the centuries depicting many of the verses of the Book of Revelation. Towards the back of the book were several methods of interpretations to the Book of Revelation. One method was the esoteric method and Quispell cites RSteiner with a brief synopsis of Steiner's lectures. When I had read this synopsis it was as if a bell went off inside me and struck a chord in my soul. I had to find out more of what Steiner had to say. I immediately went to the city library and checked out the only two books they had at the time: "Occult Science: An Outline" and "Theosophy". The rest is history.

Thanks for the verses on the Sophia. Also, if someone has not already recommended the following to you there are two books out now by Steiner Press that may be of interest to you. They are: "The Threefold Mary" by Emil Bock and "Isis - Mary - Sophia" a collection of excerpts from RSteiner's lectures.

rick distasi

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:29 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Dottie

Kim wrote:

The personality of John the Baptist and Elijah feels right, and I don't see the Lazarus personality as John the Baptist.

Dottie:

Well, then I believe you are not in line with how AP says Dr. Steiner sees this. It seems to be that John the Baptist and Lazarus are now one and the same in a sense according to how Anthroposophists hold this. Unless you are saying that you can see John the Baptist and Elijah have a connecting line as one and the Lazarus wasn't apart of that up until the raising of Lazarus.

Kim:
I don't see JtB replacing the ego of Lazarus.

Dottie

An even more interesting Jesus comment is this from the Pistis Sophia 193:

Where shall I be, there will be also my twelve ministers. But Mary Magdalene,John and the Virgin will tower over all my disciples and over all men who shall recieve the mysteries in teh Ineffable. And they will be on my right and on my left. And I am they, and they are I.

Kim
This is really an interesting piece of text. Magdalene as Balkis represents the Abel line of Initiation/Wisdom, where John as Hiram represents the Cain line of Initiation/Wisdom, and the Virgin represents the Holy Spririt. Christian Rosencreutz took in the combined wisdom, as it existed at his time, and synthesized the new Initiation/Wisdom. It was the biggest event in the post Golgatha time. And I see the events involving Magdalene, Lazarus/John, and where Christ gave 'the mother of Jesus' to the disciple, that is he became bearer of the Holy Spirit. I see John as the writer of the gospel, but in union with Magdalene and the Holy Spirit. This can give the somewhat impersonal description of Lazarus.

Dottie
Now, Kim, I have to say, it is beyond me how it can be that a Lazarus exists yet is never mentioned in the Nag Hammadi. If this person was so important how can it be, unless your understanding of twin souls comes through, that he is never mentioned within this great book? The whole idea 'oh he was so secretive and so forth, not from you, just doesn't add up. It just doesn't.

Kim
John's Gospel is written by the highest initiated. Each document in Nag Hammadi is written by persons with different types and depth of initiations, and can see only so mutch.

Dottie
p.s. I was going to give you a bit from The Moon Under Her Feet by Clysta Kinstler however I realize the piece I was thinking of is pretty graphic. I am not so sure everyone on list would appreciate this initiation. I could send you the book if you like as I am through with it.

Kim
Thank you, but, after searching a little on the net, I think there is a little to much fantasy and to little science in the book, and it is difficult enough to keep the existing facts straight, without adding fantasy.

About the initiation of Lazarus, which Rick has answered nicely, there is one more thing. Every time a person incarnates again, the initiations has to be taken again.

Love,
Kim

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:56 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Kim

The personality of John the Baptist and Elijah feels right, and I don't see the Lazarus personality as John the Baptist.

Hi Kim,

So you haven't read anything that pulls you to the thought of Lazarus/John as in the Baptist? For you it is the disciple John. And so if you hold the Magdalene and Lazarus as twin souls you hold that the mystery involves them uniting with John the disciple? Or is this a mystery unto themselves (the siblings)

Kim
This is really an interesting piece of text. Magdalene as Balkis represents the Abel line of Initiation/Wisdom, where John as Hiram represents the Cain line of Initiation/Wisdom, and the Virgin represents the Holy Spririt. Christian Rosencreutz took in the combined wisdom, as it existed at his time, and synthesized the new Initiation/Wisdom. It was the biggest event in the post Golgatha time. And I see the events involving Magdalene, Lazarus/John, and where Christ gave 'the mother of Jesus' to the disciple, that is he became bearer of the Holy Spirit. I see John as the writer of the gospel, but in union with Magdalene and the Holy Spirit. This can give the somewhat impersonal description of Lazarus.

Dottie

Okay, I found the Abel line last night as well. However my thoughts wondered to how it is two males and one of them represents the female line. Where is the daughter voice? I understand we are saying it runs through Abel but why is this a male in the story? I know this sounds so elementary however I have seen that everything has its due in the Bible. Everything can be traced for it was written as a mystery revelation.

Do you see or understand Magdalene anywhere around Christian? Or maybe a better way is where do you see her and as who?

Kim
John's Gospel is written by the highest initiated. Each document in Nag Hammadi is written by persons with different types and depth of initiations, and can see only so mutch.

Dottie

But the Voice of Thunder is written in the same vein as one who was the highest initiate as far as I can understand. As well is the Pistis Sophia. So, I don't think that can be the reason. Even unto the Gospel of Mary. It is clear she has revelations that just shock everyone else and they do seem to be in the 'feelin/inspiriation of the Gospel of John.

Kim
Thank you, but, after searching a little on the net, I think there is a little to much fantasy and to little science in the book, and it is difficult enough to keep the existing facts straight, without adding fantasy.

Dottie

I understand. However I will say that sometimes thoughts can become rigid, not that yours are obviously, but something has stirred within me through this book and I can not put my finger to it but I suddenly find myself inspired to more avenues of thought even if they do not pertain to her particular avenues.

I think I am going to get the Davinci Codes. I started to look at it but I really do not like novels. But in looking at his Last Supper painting I have to think something is within that book that will lead to something I need.

Dottie
About the initiation of Lazarus, which Rick has answered nicely, there is one more thing. Every time a person incarnates again, the initiations has to be taken again.

Dottie

I can understand this point of view. However as I said to Rick I do not believe it would be in the same vein as the one before. It must be a progression right? And Hiram feels larger, way larger than this Lazarus by himself.

Love to you,
Dottie

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:05 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Dottie:

Where shall I be, there will be also my twelve ministers. But Mary Magdalene,John and the Virgin will tower over all my disciples and over all men who shall recieve the mysteries in teh Ineffable. And they will be on my right and on my left. And I am they, and they are I.

Now, Kim, I have to say, it is beyond me how it can be that a Lazarus exists yet is never mentioned in the Nag Hammadi. If this person was so important how can it be, unless your understanding of twin souls comes through, that he is never mentioned within this great book? The whole idea 'oh he was so secretive and so forth, not from you, just doesn't add up. It just doesn't."

Secretive or veiled mystery. In this we do have a veiled mystery. Lazarus was raised/initiated by the Christ Being along with John the Baptist. The Being/Spirit of John the Baptist now interpenetrated the consciousness soul of Lazarus who then took on the name John. A name change is very common after an initiation such as Saul becomes Paul.

rick distasi

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From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:16 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Dottie

I will check the Widows Son in the book you mention by Smith.

rick d.:

The Widow's Son is in reference to the aspect that human souls once were open vessels to the impulses/inspirations of the spiritual world which in this case is often called the Father. The soul was referred to as the Mother. The Ego, however, is the Son of the soul. When the human Ego began to take hold of the human soul it slowly and gradually displaced and obfuscated the direct influences of the spiritual world. In other words it began to kill the Father and the soul, the Mother now becomes as a widow.

Dottie:

So, if we hold that Lazarus is indeed Hiram then he should already have been initiated into the Mysteries. He would not have need of a raising in the sense that Lazarus has had for he has already had it in an early incarnation."

rick d.:

Read RSteiner's, "Christianity as Mystical Fact" and you will see that Initiation is constantly changing and advancing with the Spirit of the Times. Individuals therefore are changing and advancing along with it. Lazarus as Christian Rosenkreutz was again initiated in the 13th. century.

rick distasi

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Dec 14, 2003 12:16 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Hi Rick

Rick wrote:
The Widow's Son is in reference to the aspect that human souls once were open vessels to the impulses/inspirations of the spiritual world which in this case is often called the Father. The soul was referred to as the Mother. The Ego, however, is the Son of the soul. When the human Ego began to take hold of the human soul it slowly and gradually displaced and obfuscated the direct influences of the spiritual world. In other words it began to kill the Father and the soul, the Mother now becomes as a widow.

Hi Rick,

I have a hard time looking at it like this. When I read the Egyptian Mysteries they seem to make more sense to my kind of mind. Isis is the widow and Horus seems to be in the space of the Christ like initiation. So, when I read Widows Son I think of one who has been initiated in the SophiaChrist mysteries. So, for me Hiram seems to be one of them. I am going to try and pull this in my mind the way you have it but for some reason it just doesn't seem to stick. I just have a brain hardwired differently I guess. I have to push these kinds of things in and look real hard to understand it in the same manner as everyone else. And funny how both the boys Jesus and John did not have active fathers in the sense of the birth. It was through the women these mysteries spoke.

Rick
Read RSteiner's, "Christianity as Mystical Fact" and you will see that Initiation is constantly changing and advancing with the Spirit of the Times. Individuals therefore are changing and advancing along with it. Lazarus as Christian Rosenkreutz was again initiated in the 13th. century.

Dottie

Yes I can understand this to a certain extent. At some point though I can not imagine we repeat the same kind of initiation nor one that speaks to an incarnation of an earlier time. Wouldn't you think that Hiram seems deeper initiated than Lazarus at the time of his arrival in the Bible? Why is it we know so much, and there is so much inspiration surrounding this Hiram, about Hiram and nothing about Lazarus? It doesn't make sense. And saying it is a veiled mystery does no good. The veil is to be lifted and we can do it if we so sink in with our hearts according to our ability or past ability.

I can easily sense into Hiram, and very easily sense into Christian, and even Count Saint Germaine, although I am a wee bit frightened by him. I feel at one with them in a sense although the Count seems much bigger to put it mildly. But not with Lazarus. And I think that is what came to me today; I do not 'feel' him in the same manner I can feel others. Not a remote relationship at all as a physical being. I am looking to see where he can pop up that will be interelated within me and my intutions/inspirations. Maybe he will at the very least I am sure he will if he truly does exist as a physical being.

Love,
Dottie

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:27 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Dottie

I used the John alone, because your text mentioned Magdalene, John and the Virgin. When those three are together I always see John the writer of the gospel.

Besides that, Both Smith and Bock has good cases for their views, that John the disciple is the same/not the same, and it don't changes anything, so far as they both agree on Lazarus as John the writer of the gospel.

That the higher souls of John the Baptist is reinforcing the strength of Lazarus is necessary, because his role is important (besides that JtB also needed the initiation). But I don't see JtB ego replacing Lazarus's. One reason is, that the style of the gospel after 20. (I think) is not his style. And it would be illogical to have a row of incarnations for John the evangelist and another for John the Baptist if Lazarus' soul wherent in John the evangelist.

About Abel, see my other posting.

Each time you incarnate, you have to take the initiations again. Of course, the higher you get, the easier are the lower initiations. And as time goes, the initiations change depending on the underlying spiritual stream.

CR is a little difficult yet, because he unifies Magdalene, John and the Holy Spirit. How, what, ... i don't know yet.

Love,
Kim

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Hi Kim,

Here is another little quote that feels really close to the real thing versus the accepted interpretation from the Gospel of Philip. The ending differs from that of the Nag Hammadi when translated from French.

There were three who always walked with the Lord. Mary, his mother; Mary, her sister; And Miriam of Magdala, who was called his companion; For Miriam is his sister, his mother, and his companion.

The more widely accepted version:

In the Nag Hammadi the last line goes thus; His sister and his mother and his companion were each a Mary.

For me this speaks of the three in one which is the All; Crone Maiden and Daughter

There is another interesting thought that never occured to me and it doesn't really pertain to this particular question but I would like to share it anyway. The thought is taken off an 'ancient proverb that says: That which is not lived is not redeemed.'

Jesus Christ did not live in his sexuality;
therefore sexuality is unredeemed;
therefore sexuality is essentially a bad thing;
therefore living your sexuality can be degrading
and make you guilty.

In looking at Samuel tonight I find David, father of Solomon. Do you know that Solomons mother, David's wife, is named Bathsheba? And that means the daughter of Sheba. So, the daughter in a sense was before the Queen Sheba. Hiram has ties to both father and son.

Now, Davids first son by Bathsheba was stillborn because of his sin. Hiram builds Davids house and also the Temple, for Solomon, which is destroyed before Jesus' time and then rebuilt. Something is interesting in this Samuel II regarding whom David calls Father in regards to Solomon. I find it almost relating Solomon to Jesus in a sense. I do not have the book on me so I will have to relate it tomorrow.

Love,
Dottie

Kim wrote:
I used the John alone, because your text mentioned Magdalene, John and the Virgin. When those three are together I always see John the writer of the gospel.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Richard Distasi
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

This is really an interesting piece of text. Magdalene as Balkis represents the Abel line of Initiation/Wisdom, where John as Hiram represents the Cain line of Initiation/Wisdom, and the Virgin represents the Holy Spririt.

This is intriguing Kim. I don't see MM and Lazarus as twin souls but rather they are two souls who are deeply connected karmically to one another. So deeply in fact that just recently I had thought that since Lazarus was at one time Cain could it be that MM was Able. Apparently you think so too.

rick distasi

...................................................................................................................................

From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:59 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Rick

It could be, but I am not shure. It seems that the players on the scene always functions in the same sex, while their incarnations in the opposite sex are more anonymous. Are there any references to any of Abels incarnations?

Another possibility is that Abel was female. As Abel represented the feminine principle, it would be logic if 'he' was a 'she'. There could be other reasons for using the 'he' in the texts.

Concerning the twin souls, I see no problem in that they where twin souls, there is a relation to the Adam 1 and 2 case, which represented the same two principles.

And it would be a perfect background for the Rosicrusian Mysteri, where CR connected the Cain- and Abel-streams to one.

One more thing, that is, there is a certain symmetri around the Golgatha incident, so the split in sexes have to have a corresponding action in the future.

Great,

Kim

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:22 pm
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Rick wrote:
This is intriguing Kim. I don't see MM and Lazarus as twin souls but rather they are two souls who are deeply connected karmically to one another. So deeply in fact that just recently I had thought that since Lazarus was at one time Cain could it be that MM was Able. Apparently you think so too.

Hi Rick and Kim,

Did you know that the word YHWH has both the masculine and feminine principles within? YA = God and WH = HAVAH = EVE

And this gets me to wondering about the masculine and feminine principles before the fall. Why is the one elohim not named in regards to birthing the first child but the other elohim YHWH is mentioned with the second child to be birthed through Eve?

Is there a split spoken of within the spiritual worlds as well? And I wonder if that might be the Sophia/Christ being.

My thoughts wonder to...yup couldn't hold it.

Cain and Abel,
Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: Richard Distasi
Date: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

----- Original Message -----
From: dottie zold
To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 3:16 PM
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Hi Rick

Rick wrote:

The Widow's Son is in reference to the aspect that human souls once were open vessels to the impulses/inspirations of the spiritual world which in this case is often called the Father. The soul was referred to as the Mother. The Ego, however, is the Son of the soul. When the human Ego began to take hold of the human soul it slowly and gradually displaced and obfuscated the direct influences of the spiritual world. In other words it began to kill the Father and the soul, the Mother now becomes as a widow.

Hi Rick,

I have a hard time looking at it like this. When I read the Egyptian Mysteries they seem to make more sense to my kind of mind. Isis is the widow and Horus seems to be in the space of the Christ like initiation. So, when I read Widows Son I think of one who has been initiated in the SophiaChrist mysteries. So, for me Hiram seems to be one of them. I am going to try and pull this in my mind the way you have it but for some reason it just doesn't seem to stick. I just have a brain hardwired differently I guess. I have to push these kinds of things in and look real hard to understand it in the same manner as everyone else. And funny how both the boys Jesus and John did not have active fathers in the sense of the birth. It was through the women these mysteries spoke.

Dottie, I read Tarjei's response to this and it answered the soul/Mother question very nicely. I would add that what I wrote here is from Steiner's Mark lectures. He speaks of the soul as the mother and the spiritual world that pours into and inpregnates the soul as the father. The Ego displaces the father thus we have the basis and underlying theme to the Greek tragedy, Oedipus Rex. Steiner draws this parrallel to the life of Judas Iscariot whose life does parrellel the Oedipus Rex story.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Richard Distasi
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:06 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

Kim asked:

Are there any references to any of Abels incarnations?

I can't recall any references to any later incarnations of Abel.

rick distasi

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie_z
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:13 am
Subject: Re: Three Mothers

Kim wrote:

Are there any references to any of Abels incarnations?

Rick wrote:
I can't recall any references to any later incarnations of Abel.

Hi Rick and Kim,

That is such an interesting area. Now that we have pinpointed this particular line we will find it. I already have a feeling for it and boy is it interesting. There are two streams that follow this whole existance through and through.

I've never been one to go to the Father which for me is the OT. But now I find myself readily within spiritually and mentally to look there and actually recognize mysteries whereas before I only recognized pillaging, rape and murder.

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: Richard Distasi
Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:23 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Three Mothers

dottie,

If you find anything further on the latter incarnations of Abel I'm sure we would all be very interested in reading it.

Thanks,

rick d.

 

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