My final and permanent unsub from the WC

 

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 9:40 am
Subject: My final and permanent unsub from the WC

Peter Staudenmaier's infamous article "Anthroposophy and Ecofascism" begins as follows:

In June 1910 Rudolf Steiner, the founder of anthroposophy, began a speaking tour of Norway with a lecture to a large and attentive audience in Oslo. The lecture was titled "The Mission of Individual European National Souls in Relation to Nordic-Germanic Mythology." In the Oslo lecture and throughout his Norwegian tour Steiner presented his theory of "national souls" (Volksseelen in German, Steiner's native tongue) and paid particular attention to the mysterious wonders of the "Nordic spirit." The "national souls" of Northern and Central Europe were, Steiner explained, components of the "germanic-nordic sub-race," the world's most spiritually advanced ethnic group, which was in turn the vanguard of the highest of five historical "root races." This superior fifth root race, Steiner told his Oslo audience, was naturally the "Aryan race."

When I confronted PS with this outrageous bullshit, he did admit that his claim that RS had taught his audience about the superiority of the Aryan race was simply "an opening device", i.e. an attention-getter. There are other untruths in this "opening device" of course, proving how extremely sloppy PS' research has been - RS did not, for instance, begin any "speaking tour of Norway" at the time in question (or any other time) but held a cycle of lectures in Christiania (Oslo) - but that's beside the point.

It was easy to recognize that this was no accidental error or misconception on PS' part, but a deliberate distortion, in other words: a lie. Sune was involuntarily unsubscribed by the moderator for calling PS a liar. I didn't do that; I only called his statement a lie. A spade is a spade I would think.

To his credit, I must say that Dan Dugan was always a gentleman who treated the subcribers with fairness. But something seems to have affected his judgement after the arrival of PS, who echoed his own fantasies about Anthroposophy and Nazism with a flair he must have enjoyed so much that he worried about his superstar leaving. Calling his bluff on this particular point and pushing it too far might have done that trick. So nobody was permitted to say that the statement in question here was a lie. It was a so-called "ad hominem argument" against Peter Staudenmaier to say that it was a deliberate distortion to claim that RS taught his audience in Oslo that the Aryans are a superior race.

For the record, here is my final post to the WC, proving my point:

[long link]

Re: Peter Staudenmaier's lie about RS exposed Tarjei Straume Oct 05, 2001 16:20 PDT

Tarjei:

Now I'm being censored too because DD cannot stand to see his pet theory about RS and Nazism disproven and PS' lies exposed.

Dan Dugan:

Wrong, Tarjei. You have been warned not to call your fellow subscriber a liar.

Tarjei:

I have not called my fellow subscribers anything at all. I did write at one point that they waddled like mudducks, and I would have accepted a protest on that one. But to call a statement a lie is within the bounds of topic-related, issue-related, statement-related freedom of expression.

Dan Dugan:

Nothing to do with censorship,

Tarjei:

When I am prevented from saying that a statement is an untruth, a lie, it is censorship.

Five months is a long time. Goodbye.

(unsubscribing)
--
Tarjei

http://uncletaz.com/

Cheers,

Tarjei

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 10:17 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

The link between PS and Rudolf Steiner's Anthoposophy is just the same existing between the "historian" David Irving and the studies about the Holocaust.

A.

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 10:55 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

At 19:17 08.02.2004, Andrea wrote:

The link between PS and Rudolf Steiner's Anthoposophy is just the same existing between the "historian" David Irving and the studies about the Holocaust.

I told him that. He knows. He knows very well. His response was to argue why "historical revisionism", which I called it, is very normal and necessary when historians discover new facts of history. He is in other words defending his undocumented fables and smears by hinting at non-existing new discoveries that should call for a revision of the history of the Anthroposophical Movement.

Tarjei

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Feb 8, 2004 10:01 pm
Subject: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

----- Original Message -----
From: Tarjei Straume
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

At 19:17 08.02.2004, Andrea wrote:

The link between PS and Rudolf Steiner's Anthoposophy is just the same existing between the "historian" David Irving and the studies about the Holocaust.

I told him that. He knows. He knows very well. His response was to argue why "historical revisionism", which I called it, is very normal and necessary when historians discover new facts of history.

.....But David Irving did not discover anything new. He is only used to twist evry possible fact in order to support is own world of twisted ideological paranoia. PS does just the same!

A.

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 3:02 am
Subject: Re: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

Andrea wrote:

The link between PS and Rudolf Steiner's Anthoposophy is just the same existing between the "historian" David Irving and the studies about the Holocaust.

Tarjei wrote:

I told him that. He knows. He knows very well. His response was to argue why "historical revisionism", which I called it, is very normal and necessary when historians discover new facts of history.

Andrea wrote:

.....But David Irving did not discover anything new. He is only used to twist evry possible fact in order to support is own world of twisted ideological paranoia. PS does just the same!

You're absolutely right. I didn't refer to Irving specifically in my exchange with PS, but I did mention Holocaust denial. PS has a peculiar debating style, however, which is clearly illustrated by the piece below that I extracted from the Topica archives. The date of the following exchange is May 15, 2001:

Tarjei:

In fact, it is historical revisionism masquerading as historical inquiry, deluding unsuspecting outsiders.

Peter S:

You seem to have some sort of grudge against revisionist arguments in historiography. Could you explain why?

Tarjei:

What I was getting at was endeavors to convince people that Hitler had no death camps

Peter S:

Ah, sorry about that, I misunderstood you. In the field of holocaust historiography, "revisionism" does indeed mean denial of the holocaust. But not in the wider historiography of the Third Reich, much less in modern German history as a whole. But now that I see what you mean, I must ask, what do my arguments have to do with holocaust denial?

At this time, PS seemed a little confused when I mentioned the statistics from voting record among Norwegian anthroposophists, which is overwhelmingly left wing, in the face of PS' suggestion that anthroposophy is a right-wing ideology with historical close ties to Nazism. So he claimed that the history of the anthroposophical movement in Germany proved his point. So I asked if he knew anything about Italy (same date as above):

Tarjei:

So the question is, does the majority of Italian anthroposophists also vote right wing? My educated guess is that we'll never get an answer to that from _you_, because the facts won't fit your untruthful pet theory.

Peter S:

You won't get an answer from me because I don't know much about the topic (not to mention the fact that it isn't relevant to our debate). You, on the other hand, seem quite confident that most Italian anthros vote left. It might interest you to learn that there was a lengthy article on Italian anthroposophists in the tageszeitung in 1995 (their infamous special issue on anthroposophy) which says the very opposite.

Comments from an Italian may be interesting.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Mon Feb 9, 2004 9:59 am
Subject: R: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

----- Original Message -----
From: Tarjei Straume <anthrouncle@chello.no>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] My final and permanent unsub from the WC

Comments from an Italian may be interesting.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

That's an interesting question, but a difficult one to answer. First of all, Italina anthropop are few and usually "silent" about political choices. So I'm able to talk only about the insights sprung from my own personal stadpoint.

I live in Rome but, since I write on Anthro magazines, I got also aome knowledge about the anthro movement outside Rome

Well If you bear in mind the above and note also that here we have got the "Berlusconi problem" I can say that , for the most part, Anthropop are "no Silvio" and opposite to his garbage-government.

Neverthless this does not mean that theiy are "leftist", (here "left" keeps somewhat the meaning of "marxist") but I coul better call them "liberals" or "liberal-democrats" or, as myself "liberal-ecologists".. (just like the whole of the fellows of my own personal "group", more or less 20-25 individuals).
There is also, here in Rome, a small circle of "right-winged" , mostly for biographical matters (some of them was a rightwing extremist saved from the doom by "Anthropos Sophia, neverthless he's keeping some "rightwing" background in his soul!). Some of them is also convinced that Hess was an anthropop., and I've been writing something to demonstrate that they are wrong...........

So here you can see the cooperation of the "Two Hindrancers" from left and from right, leading to the same conclusion doesn't it?

A.

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