Lucifer

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:33 pm
Subject: Lucifer

Hi Everyone,

In looking at Lucifer's supposed incarnation in 3000bc, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts at to what physical personality we are speaking of?

And who would his Angel have been? I am wondering who might have represented the Feminine Divine during this period as well?

I have been thinking about the statement Tarjei made a while back that Ahriman was Lucifers karma. I had never heard of that before but it makes sense to me because I was holding the idea that Ahriman was Lucifers fallen, (not understood as Karma at that point) but thought it quite ignorant to say a think like that outright or even to think it straight through. The way Tarjei put it seems quite right to me in a way. Yet I have to wonder that they are one and the same in the spiritual worlds unless Ahriman, the karma of Lucifer, can actually seperate itself from Lucifers soul/spirit/whateverthatis. I think what I need is a something by Steiner to contemplate, regarding this particular thought, if anyone knows where I can find this online or in a book.

And where does this Ahriman rest while in the spiritual worlds?

Pondering a few things,
Dottie

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Lucifer

Dottie:
I have been thinking about the statement Tarjei made a while back that Ahriman was Lucifers karma.

Dottie

What I am trying to get at is this: was this incarnation of Lucifer the only one that will happen in the manner that was true of Christ? Does Steiner teach this anywhere?

In thinking of an offlist conversation, I am wondering if anyone holds that Sophia was physically incarnated at any point in our history? If not, does anyone think she may physically incarnate in the future?

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:14 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Lucifer

At 23:33 24.01.2004, Dottie wrote:

In looking at Lucifer's supposed incarnation in 3000bc, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts at to what physical personality we are speaking of?

I don't know how much we have to go on here. RS says some interesting things about the incarnation of Lucifer in "The Ahrimanic Deception":

Why had the ancient pagan wisdom, which is in many respects so wonderful, to experience a new form, a transformation, through Judaism and Christianity? This question inevitably arises.

The answer is supplied for Initiation-wisdom through a very, very weighty fact, through an event which took place far over in Asia at the beginning of the third millennium of the pre-Christian era. Clairvoyant vision finds in looking back that an incarnation of a supersensible Being in a human being had taken place there, just as in the Event of Golgotha an incarnation of the supersensible Christ Being had taken place in the man Jesus of Nazareth. The incarnation that took place at the beginning of the third millennium B.C is extraordinarily difficult to follow up, even with the science of seership, of initiation. It gave humanity something of immense brilliance, having an incisive effect. What it gave to humanity, in fact, was the primeval wisdom.

Viewed externally, one can say that it was a wisdom penetrating deep into reality; cold, based purely on ideas, permeated little by feeling. The actual inner nature of this wisdom can be judged only by going back to that incarnation which took place over in Asia at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium. It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power.

And this incarnation of Lucifer in humanity, which in a certain way has been achieved, was the origin of the widely extended ancient wisdom based on the Third Post-Atlantean civilization.

There was still an after-effect, even in Grecian times, of the widespread cultural impulse that was derived from this Asiatic, Luciferic human being. Luciferic wisdom was of the utmost benefit to man in that epoch of evolution - brilliant in a certain way, graduated according to the different peoples and races among which it was spread. It was plainly recognizable throughout the whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization, the Babylonian civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

All that was possible to the humanity of that time in thought, in the realm of poetry, in deeds, was in a certain way determined through the entry of this Luciferic impulse into human civilization.

It would, of course, be extraordinarily philistine to wish to say: That was an incarnation of Lucifer, hence we must flee from it! Such philistinism could make one also flee from the beauty and greatness that has come to mankind from this Luciferic stream, for the fruits of Greek culture with all their beauty, proceeded, as already said, from this stream of evolution. The whole of Gnostic thought existing at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha, an impressive wisdom shedding light deep into cosmic realities - this whole Gnostic knowledge was inspired by the impulse coming from Luciferic forces. One must not say that Gnostic thought is therefore false; one is merely characterizing it by saying that it is permeated by Luciferic forces.

"Der Innere Aspekt des sozialen Rätsels; Luciferische Vergangenheit, Ahrimanische Zukunft" (Zurich, 27th October, 1919. GA 193)

Complete lecture at http://www.uncletaz.com/ahrimdec.html

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:46 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer


Dottie wrote:

In looking at Lucifer's supposed incarnation in 3000bc, I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts at to what physical personality we are speaking of?

Tarjei:

I don't know how much we have to go on here. RS says some interesting things about the incarnation of Lucifer in "The Ahrimanic Deception":

Dear Tarjei,

Thanks for the reference below. I will check out your site for the rest of the lecture.

Do you, or maybe someone else, know who the great leaders of that period of time are said to have been? Who do we have in charge of what is happening in the world at that particular time? What was happening at the period of time? Does anyone know who the great poets were of that period?

If we look at 3000 BC wasn't that about a thousand years before Judaism began or was understood to take root? I am thinking that this period of time found the peoples looking to the 'Mother of All'. And, Lucifer kills Isis, so Steiner says, and She was none other than the old Sophia. I call Her old because Steiner says we have to look for the new Sophia.

I have to say the more I am contemplating these things the more I am contemplating Steiner and his previous incarnations. I do not mean to but somehow this question keeps posing itself before my mind with each new word I read about the past.

I will read the lecture,

Thanks Tarjei,
Dottie

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:58 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Hello Dottie

Some pieces which might point in the right direction:

This “Holy Spirit” is none other than the Lucifer-Spirit, resurrected now in higher, purer glory — the Spirit of independent understanding, wisdom-inwoven. The torch of the resurrected Lucifer, of the Lucifer now transformed into the good, blazons the way for Christ. Lucifer is the bearer of the Light — Christ is the Light! That is what the spiritual scientific movement should be, that is implicit in it. Those who know that the progress of mankind depends upon living apprehension of the mighty Event of Golgotha are they who as the “Masters of Wisdom and of the Harmony of Feelings” are united in the great Guiding Lodge of mankind. The “Holy Spirit” is the mighty Teacher of those we name the “Masters of Wisdom and of the Harmony of Feelings”. It is through them that his voice and his wisdom flow down to mankind in this or that stream upon the earth.

The Deed of Christ and the Opposing Spiritual Powers Lucifer, Ahriman, Asuras. http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/DeedChrist/19090322p01.html

My guess is that it is Adam-Kadmon, that after 1840 is moving in to the angelic position of the Holy Spirit, with Sophia as Archangel, and Michael as Archai in the trinity of the Holy Spirit.

About the ahrimanic beings:

Our own evolution, of course, went on alongside all this, by way of preparation. If we go back to the Moon state we must say: Here the Angeloi were human beings, human beings, to be sure, with an appearance quite different from ours, for there were quite different conditions upon the ancient Moon. But alongside these Moon men, the Angeloi, we developed in a pre-state of the Earth evolution, in a very advanced state, so that we had to be taken into consideration by the Angeloi. Especially during the descending phase of the Moon evolution did we, at times, constitute a troublesome concern for the Angeloi. The same, however, is the case with us in descending Earth evolution: since the Earth evolution has entered its descending phases, other beings make themselves felt. My dear friends, it is a significant, an important result of spiritual-scientific research which is to be taken very, very seriously, that we have already entered the period of Earth evolution when certain beings make themselves felt who upon Jupiter — the next state of Earth evolution — will have advanced to the form of man, a different form of man, to be sure, but which, nevertheless, may be compared with the being of man. For we will be different beings on Jupiter. These so-to-speak Jupiter men exist already no just as we existed upon the Moon. They exist, of course not externally visible; but I explained to you recently what it means to be externally visible, and that man is also a supersensible being. Supersensibily these beings are very decidedly present.
.....
The sub-human beings whose main character consists of an impulse which strongly coincides with human willing, with the human power of will, now appear from below, as it were, whereas the hosts of forces cast down by Michael came from above; and while these latter took possession of the human power of will; they unite themselves with it and are beings produced by the realm of Ahriman. Ahrimanic influences acted through those obscured consciousnesses. Indeed, my dear friends, as long as one does not take into consideration these forces as forces objectively existing in the world just as one takes into consideration what today is called magnetism, electricity, and so forth, one will not gain an insight into that nature which, according to Goethe's prose Hymn to Nature, comprises man. For nature, as it is conceived of in today's natural science does not contain man, but merely the human physical self.

At the beginning of Earth becoming we have to do with a downfall of Luciferic beings; today we have a rise of Ahrimanic beings. The former beings influence the Luciferic power of thought, the latter the human power of will; we have to recognize the arrival of these latter begins within the evolution of mankind. We have to realize that these beings arrive and that we have to reckon with a conception of nature which, to be sure, for the time being only includes man; for the animal kingdom will only be included later on in the Earth period. Upon the animal these beings have no influences as yet. We shall not comprehend the human race without taking these beings into consideration. And these beings, who are, as it were, pushed from behind, for behind them there stands the Ahrimanic power which endows them with their strong will power, which pours into them their directive forces, — these beings who as such are sub-human beings are controlled in their totality by higher Ahrimanic spirits and thus contain something which far surpasses their own nature and being. Therefore they show something in their appearance which, if it takes the human being captive, acts much more strongly, very much more strongly than that which the weak human being can control today, if he does not strengthen it through the spirit. What is the aim of this host? Well, my dear friends, just as the hosts which Michael has pushed down have aimed at human illumination, at human permeation with reason, so these hosts aim at a certain permeation of human willing. And what do they want? They burrow, as it were, in the deepest stratum of consciousness in which the human being is still asleep today in his waking state. Man does not notice how these beings enter his soul and also his body. Here they suck in, with their power of attraction, everything that has remained Luciferic, that has not become Christ-permeated. This they can reach: this they can take possession of.

The Mission of the Archangel Michael V, The Michael Deed and the Michael Influence as Counter-pole of the Ahrimanic Influence, November 29, 1919
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/19191129p01.html

So luciferic beings is higher developed beings which did not reach their goal in the moon period and the ahrimanic beings are spirits who have their development as man in the Jupiter period. So Lucifer beings over us and ahrimanic beings below us. And, of course, both parties being used by higher beings.

regards,
Kim

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:35 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Kim wrote:

Some pieces which might point in the right direction:

You know Kim you just blow me away. Seriously. I can hardly take in all the great points you bring. I find that I have to begin this study of Kims post in a sense before I can even respond. So much comes up and it all feels like it is laying right there on the periphery to be acknowledged. Truly. It's like a dream come true.

I'm still working on the workbook and know I will have to keep rereading it over and over again till I can solidify those wonderful streams within me.

It's almost like it is too blinding to read for some reason. Like this blinding light blinds till one really approaches the mystery and then one becomes it in a way. I mean its like I can not even look at it right now. Isn't that wierd?

Anyhow, thank you so much and I am printing it up right now.

All good things,
d

Win a date with Tad Hamilton made me smile. A cutey little upbeat movie:)

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From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:31 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness of Lucifer who do we find?

Last night I found myself in front of, rather early early this morning, the Jewish temple in my neighborhood. It was lit from across the street and when I looked real close I found all ancient Egyptian letters in a sense. I even saw Christ on the cross within their circular glass bowl on the wall. AND it was an Egyptian head dress of the U with feminine ends to the end lines.

I guess I am surprised just because nobody speaks of this connection. It was pretty amazing to be standing there and seeing this connection so outright that nobody seems to talk about.

Another warm day in Cali,

Dottie

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From: Gisele
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

dottie zold wrote:

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness of Lucifer who do we find?

~~~~Hi Dottie, I also have pondered sometimes about who could this incarnation of Lucifer be attributed to. Going three thousand years back before Christ, it cannot be researched historically, because we are in the realm of pre-history. But because if I remember right Steiner's indications it was supposed to have taken place in the East, I was thinking China rather than India. And we do have a book of ancient Chinese philosophy that dates back millennia: The I Ching or book of changes.

This is what I found about it's history:

In Chinese literature four holy men are cited as the authors of the Book of Changes, namely, Fu Hsi, King Wen, the Duke of Chou, and Confucius. Fu Hsi is a legendary figure representing the era of hunting and fishing and of the invention of cooking. The fact that he is designated as the inventor of the linear signs of the Book of Changes means that they have been held to be of such antiquity that they antedate historical memory...

Elementals of snow and ice here in England

Gisele

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:21 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

At 23:24 29.01.2004, Gisele wrote:

Elementals of snow and ice here in England

Try Oslo these days. We haven't had as much snow since 1967! The trains and trams get stuck, but they're working around the clock to keep the roads open. I managed to park my car at work today by diving the vehicle into a pile of snow where the curb used to be. It must have been snowing for two weeks straight. Remember that old sone, "As long as you love me so, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow?

Anyway, nice for the kids that they get a proper winter even in the city. And because we're dependent upon hydro power, it's good for the electric bill which tripled a year ago when there had been too little rain and snow.

The global warming doomsayers will have a problem explaining this winter. I saw the thermometer showed minus 14 degrees Celsius in New York, and the winter in the North-East U.S. has been rough. So where's the global warming? If we get colder climate during the next 20 years, what will they say? (The earth's climate, especially temperatures, is controlled by sun spots and cosmic solar rays.)

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Gisele

But because if I remember right Steiner's indications it was supposed to have taken place in the East, I was thinking China rather than India. And we do have a book of ancient Chinese philosophy that dates back millennia: The I Ching or book of changes.

AND the Quan Yin :))))))) Okay, sorry, I just have found an old book on the I Ching of Quan Yin. She rides the dragon and I really love her alot. The other person who was so noted to have ridden the dragon was the founder of Zen. At least this what Confuscious say;)

There has to be history on this. I mean we are talking only one thousand years before Judaism. And I think you are right when you come to China versus India.

Thanks for the hint. Now I can go check this new stream and see how it meets up with Christianity and its leaders.

Whew, lots of studying huh? Would be alot easier to just sit in the spirit and get it that way I will say. All this physical word stuff is just starting to really get on my nerves:)

Swimming in Cali, :) sorry it really is just so beautiful,

Dottie

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From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:07 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer

--- In anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com, dottie zold wrote:

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness of Lucifer who do we find?

Bradford comments;

Lucifer Incarnation connected to TAOISM somewhere in the vicinity of 3000 b.c. Christ Incarnation into Jesus, combined efforts of Buddha and Zarathustra, in the middle between Lucifer and Ahriman. Ahriman, ETA, incarnation vicinity of 3000 a.d.

All estimates come with a disclaimer. Connected ideas such as major Divine Incarnations, with a more than human influx coming within a numerically balanced outline of human history asks a great deal of the Logic of the world. Does the world make that much sense? Is this part of the hidden riddle of history that escapes human understanding?

Acupuncture, the Silk Worm and writing are mighty impulses. The flowering of Taoistic Western philosophy out of the Greek culture and drawing off the mighty heritage of Lucifer's download in ancient China bring schools of Initiates and Doctors into the way of the world and the hidden wisdom humanity seeks. Initiation into the higher worlds, via the ancient methods where the Astral body is drawn out and the etheric body maintained in a three day experience, is part of the ancient school of Lucifer Wisdom.

The Immortal Imagination of Three Crosses Crowning Golgotha's Hill and our current techno-cloning and Ahrimanic preparations for a real magical influx from the Ahrimanic, reveal a story that rises up from Soloviev and his "The Anti-Christ".

http://praiseofglory.com/taleantichrist.htm

However the outstanding details of how the human being is constructed in layers of triadic reality, Soul development and Spiritual capacities bring the ancient development of humanity along the western curve of historical Intellectual Development, through the classics, Greek Thought, crowning vision School of Athens and the call for human freedom and democracy.

Rome arrives and the Incarnation of Christ stuns the Earth - enter ST. Paul- this becomes one of the most enormous and detailed tales that describe a new form of Initation..

The new intiation, the one now being written, how we began to confront Ahrimanic preparation in the 15th century and began to meet Ahriman in his writing, particularly Nietzsche; till we slowly see how the Conscious mysteries that Christ performed in matter, become a stolen mirror image of how Ahriman intends to shift human insight away from their higher spiritual consciousness and inner structure of soul and spirit; to the cure all magic of recycling matter, manipulating matter and generations by narrowing the perspective our divinity and growing a dependency on the doubt that there is a Spiritual World, or was, of any Divine Beings. Gattica 101. Matrix 4.

Somehow the mighty pivotal image of Equal weight on one side of the scale for the influx of Luciferic forces which allows man to rise to the contemplation and particpation of the gods through ancient initiation...balanced on the far side; the other side of the scale by the Ahrimanic impulse which sets the weight down into the atomic table and chromosome structure of matter.

Standing in the middle of these two scales is the supporting beam of Golgotha and Human freedom to understand the Greatness of culture before Christ and betrayal of creation and understanding the roots of matter, after Christ. Sounds very logical doesn't it? What an incredible posing of themes, dynamics and history Steiner has given us to consider. The Gods must be Crazy!

However if we go back to find where Lucifer might have brought down his infusion, we might head in the direction of:

http://www.parascope.com/articles/1297/huangti.htm

********" The Chinese way of thought the 'The Tao' has been attributed to the 'Yellow' Emperor, Huang Ti, who lived from 2698 to 2597 BC, but bio-archaeological evidence suggests the early Elohim presence and the source for this philosophy emanating through their intensive farming (inc. Kharsag millet) in the Huanghe and Yangzie river basins before 6,500 BC. The best known Chinese philosophers were Lao-Tse and Confucius, whose teachings around 520 BC were based on 'The Tao' philosophy. The relative stability in the cultural development of China over 7000 years, provides many clues and unique links to the Elohim. 'The Tao' is still a pillar of Chinese society.

(Words of Meng-Tzu): "Every man possesses in himself the four principles of benevolence, justice, propriety and wisdom, and that man has only to obey the law within himself in order to be perfect". Plato emphasised soon afterwards that good people do not need laws and bad people break them away.

(Words from I Ching - Book of Changes): "The superior man, who sees not only things but the tao of things, is rare. The tao of the universe is indeed kindness and wisdom; but essentially tao is also beyond kindness and wisdom".

******* "THE tranquil landscape surrounding a lonely stone pagoda some 50 miles from the city of Xian in northwestern China has inspired visionaries and rulers. According to legend, the founder of Taoism, Lao-tzu, wrote his classic work, the Tao Te Ching, during a single night's stay in the nearby hills before disappearing into the west. More than 1,000 years later, in the seventh century A.D., a Tang emperor erected a vast complex of Taoist temples on the site, calling them Lou Guan Tai. And there, more recently, Martin Palmer, a British Sinologist and theologian, claims to have discovered remains of the earliest Christian church in China, dating back to the seventh century."

****** "Taoism is a religion, a philosophy, a way of living, and a way of spiritual, mental, and physical development. It is an ancient Chinese philosophical tradition whose origins extend back to 3000 B.C. The first written works to promote the Taoist outlook appeared around 500 B.C. and were attributed Lao Tzu (Tao Te Ching) and Chuang Tzu ("Inner Chapters"). Thomas Merton, a Christian mystic, translated an excellent collection of Chang Tzu's works called "The Way of Chuang Tzu"

Taoism is a spontaneous, profound awareness of the true nature of things, expressed in mystical and poetic terms. According to this philosophy all manifestation, is part of an inseparable whole, an interconnected organic unity which arises from a deep, mysterious, and essentially unexplainable source which is the Tao itself.

Taoism views the Universe as operating according to a set of unchanging natural laws. As an inseparable part of this unchanging whole, human beings are able to discover these laws and become attuned to them. By aligning ourselves with these principles we can gain a universal perspective and understanding and which allows life to be lived in harmony with the Tao.

The symbol of Taoism is the "t'ai c'hi t'u" also called the "symbol of the ultimate supreme". It is better known as the yin-yang symbol. The symbol of two fish-one dark with a light eye and one light with a dark eye-chasing each other around in a circle is a metaphor for the active and passive forces in the universe. There is the dark, passive, female yin and the bright, active, male yang. These two forces swirl about and through each other, changing constantly. One becomes the other, and both always contain the seed of the other within (i.e., as the eye of the fish in the image). "

"Huang-ti ruled the land for one hundred years, but his life span was much greater: some sources suggest that he lived for three hundred years. Where he spent the rest of his days, and what activities he was engaged in is open to speculation. There are Tao sources who state unambiguously that after one hundred years of his "rule" Huang- ti returned to his home star, "ascended the heavens, and became the ruler of the Great Infinite, again turning into the star Syuan Yuan." The same star that his "tripods" had pointed at. An ancient Chinese drawing of the Syuan Yuan constellation has been identified by modern astronomers as that of the Leo constellation. Its brightest star is (Alpha Leo), Regulus."

http://holisticvetpetcare.com/healing_accupressure1.htm

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From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:41 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Good idea.

I think I have heard that the Krisna litterature and the Law of Manu if from about the same time.

Kim

A little piece of RS:

You can already gather from these external facts something that I beg you to bear in mind, namely, that it was essential in humanity's evolution to confront the ancient heathen element and its wisdom with the Jewish element out of which Christianity evolved partially, at all events. The primeval heathen or pagan wisdom in its totality was not destined to have the sole influence on the further evolution of mankind. And now the question must arise: Why had the ancient pagan wisdom, which is in many respects so wonderful, to experience a new form, a transformation, through Judaism and Christianity? This question inevitably arises.

The answer is supplied for Initiation-wisdom through a very, very weighty fact, through an event which took place far over in Asia at the beginning of the third millennium of the pre-Christian era. Clairvoyant vision finds in looking back that an incarnation of a supersensible Being in a human being had taken place there, just as in the Event of Golgotha an incarnation of the supersensible Christ Being had taken place in the man Jesus of Nazareth. The incarnation that took place at the beginning of the third millennium B.C is extraordinarily difficult to follow up, even with the science of seership, of initiation. It gave humanity something of immense brilliance, having an incisive effect. What it gave to humanity, in fact, was the primeval wisdom.

Viewed externally, one can say that it was a wisdom penetrating deep into reality; cold, based purely on ideas, permeated little by feeling. The actual inner nature of this wisdom can be judged only by going back to that incarnation which took place over in Asia at the beginning of the third pre-Christian millennium. It is revealed to the retrospective clairvoyant gaze that this was an actual human incarnation of the Luciferic Power.

And this incarnation of Lucifer in humanity, which in a certain way has been achieved, was the origin of the widely extended ancient wisdom based on the Third Post-Atlantean civilization.

There was still an after-effect, even in Grecian times, of the widespread cultural impulse that was derived from this Asiatic, Luciferic human being. Luciferic wisdom was of the utmost benefit to man in that epoch of evolution - brilliant in a certain way, graduated according to the different peoples and races among which it was spread. It was plainly recognizable throughout the whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization, the Babylonian civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

All that was possible to the humanity of that time in thought, in the realm of poetry, in deeds, was in a certain way determined through the entry of this Luciferic impulse into human civilization.

It would, of course, be extraordinarily philistine to wish to say: That was an incarnation of Lucifer, hence we must flee from it! Such philistinism could make one also flee from the beauty and greatness that has come to mankind from this Luciferic stream, for the fruits of Greek culture with all their beauty, proceeded, as already said, from this stream of evolution. The whole of Gnostic thought existing at the time of the Mystery of Golgotha, an impressive wisdom shedding light deep into cosmic realities - this whole Gnostic knowledge was inspired by the impulse coming from Luciferic forces. One must not say that Gnostic thought is therefore false; one is merely characterizing it by saying that it is permeated by Luciferic forces.

THE AHRIMANIC DECEPTION, A lecture by Rudolf Steiner, Zurich, 27th October, 1919.
http://www.uncletaz.com/ahrimdec.html

dottie zold wrote:

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness of Lucifer who do we find?

~~~~Hi Dottie, I also have pondered sometimes about who could this incarnation of Lucifer be attributed to. Going three thousand years back before Christ, it cannot be researched historically, because we are in the realm of pre-history. But because if I remember right Steiner's indications it was supposed to have taken place in the East, I was thinking China rather than India. And we do have a book of ancient Chinese philosophy that dates back millennia: The I Ching or book of changes.

This is what I found about it's history:

In Chinese literature four holy men are cited as the authors of the Book of Changes, namely, Fu Hsi, King Wen, the Duke of Chou, and Confucius. Fu Hsi is a legendary figure representing the era of hunting and fishing and of the invention of cooking. The fact that he is designated as the inventor of the linear signs of the Book of Changes means that they have been held to be of such antiquity that they antedate historical memory...

Elementals of snow and ice here in England

Gisele

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From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:52 am
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Kim wrote:

It was plainly recognizable throughout the whole of Asia, then in the Egyptian civilization, the Babylonian civilization and even in the culture of Greece.

Aha!

Hi Kim and Gisele,

Yesterday when I was contemplating and checking these things out I kept coming up with Egyptian and Greek. But I thought it was to forward of the time period we were looking at, even when looking at Egyptians. But it was not:) I kept finding my self back at Sumer with this kind of Luciferic knowledge.

Also contemplating who could carry this sublime being? Who could dare take on that kind of responsibility? Where do we fast forward to when looking for the physical man who carried this spirit. I mean this is one weighty man of knowledge it would seem. Who were his disciples so to speak. Who were his helpers in implementing such things as Steiner holds him accountable?

Who was the greatest man of knowledge in Egypt and then Sumer and Greece? I bet we can trace it back this way today. It really feels like a Middle Eastern/Chinese influence than strictly a Chinese influence. A few of the places I checked out yesterday had them being called the Sons of Heaven.

Also Steiner mentions it was the great forebearer in a sense of the Gnostic traditions. And the Gnostics are of the Feminine Divine revelations in my mind. I wonder on what side Lucifer finds Himself of the equation: left or right? Hmm.

Happy Happy Friday,
Dottie

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From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:59 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

----- Original Message -----
From: dottie zold
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 10:31 PM
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Kim, there was supposedly a physical incarnation of Lucifer. Is this correct? If we go back to the beginningness of Lucifer who do we find?

Somewhere I read about it that "he" should have been the ancient Chinese Emperor Fo-Hi (more or less 2600 BC) known as one of the faherss of Yin-Yang doctrine.

Hope that'll be of some use.

Andrea

...................................................................................................................................

From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:09 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Beautifull!!!!

It sounds right.

His name is bound to The Towers of Hanoi problem.

But he is known for Yin/Yang, Accupuncture, Chinese Astrology, and ....

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/f/fu_xi.html

http://www.mythopedia.info/22-china.htm

Different spellings: Fu Xi = Fu Hi = Fu Hsia = Fu-Hsi = Fu-hsi = Fo-Hi = Fu-Hi = Fu-hi

Kim

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:57 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

--- Kim wrote:

Beautifull!!!!

It sounds right.

His name is bound to The Towers of Hanoi problem.

Hi Kim and Andrea,

I'd have to say I am agreement. Kim, where do you get The Towers of Hanoi problem?

Andrea you have put 'he' in marks, any reason why? The reason I ask is because right from the very first sign from Kim, my understanding, is of Magdalene: "The Towers"...:) Also this story is a classic one for the Feminine and Masculine entertwining. Interesting imagery with the Stars dancing at the sister/wifes singing. (takes me to the story of Mary dancing on the steps of the temple, and how everyone loved her)

Wow this will be an interesting study.

Calm Saturday,

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:33 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

----- Original Message -----
From: dottie zold
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:57 PM
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

--- Kim wrote:

Beautifull!!!!

It sounds right.

His name is bound to The Towers of Hanoi problem.

Hi Kim and Andrea,

I'd have to say I am agreement. Kim, where do you get The Towers of Hanoi problem?

Andrea you have put 'he' in marks, any reason why? The reason I ask is because right from the very first sign from Kim, my understanding, is of Magdalene: "The Towers"...:) Also this story is a classic one for the Feminine and Masculine entertwining.

Yes, I'm not sure - in this case - if we could talk about a complete masculine or female embodiment or not. But what really matters here is the building of a true luciferic high form of pre-christian spiritual wisdom able to give not only fruits like the Taoism or Chinese Akchemy but to fill Mankind's history for thousands of years all over the world, while the Logos Himself was performing the acts Steiner talked about in his lectures about the Christ and the Nathan Soul before the Evenys of Palestine. ("Christ and Spiritual World" If I remember well and also on the two cycles about the "Bhagavad Gita")

Andrea the Italian

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:52 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Andrea

Yes, I'm not sure - in this case - if we could talk about a complete masculine or female embodiment or not.

Hi Andrea and Kim,

Andrea, you have offered such a stunning stream to contemplate. I immediately, after having read the pages Kim offered, sensed the intense golden light of Krishna. Immediately. And what a smile. Oh what a smile.

In regards to the human part it would seem that at least the spirit would have not been as bodily tied as was the Christ. I almost imagine the very real dance of the cosmos with the uniting of the sister/brother/husband/wife combination. Thinking on the Babaji stream. Oh what a joy Babaji is:), oh how lighthearted and mischevious.

This morning I listened in on an NPR show featuring the best supporting actor nominee Ken Watannabe (sp:(? and wow if he is not a direct throw back to the being we are discussing at this very moment. Very talented in all the arts as well as philosophy of man in its every day way of being. Not to mention the voice of the divine when he sings, just so melodoius:) new word maybe. Oh well.

Blessed Be,

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Dottie wrote:

Andrea you have put 'he' in marks, any reason why? The reason I ask is because right from the very first sign from Kim, my understanding, is of Magdalene: "The Towers"...:) Also this story is a classic one for the Feminine and Masculine entertwining.

Andrea wrote:

Yes, I'm not sure - in this case - if we could talk about a complete masculine or female embodiment or not. But what really matters here is the building of a true luciferic high form of pre-christian spiritual wisdom able to give not only fruits like the Taoism or Chinese Akchemy but to fill Mankind's history for thousands of years all over the world, ...

Dear Andrea and Kim,

Andrea what really matters are that things are balanced. And as long as I have to keep hearing about male beings topping female beings we have an issue. And the reason being is that it is not true. And if we aim to wear the yoke of Sophia we must be able to recongize her. And so in identifying soley with the male of things we miss her completely.

Having said this I want to share a few websites that speak to the Nu Kwa the wife of Fu Hi (many other close reflections of this name Kim provided on a web page reference). What I find interesting is that this Nu Kwa is a direct connection to Kwan Yin. The name was changed to Kwan Yin when the Buddists came over to China. It seems they were unwilling to let go of their Mother Nu Kwa that the Buddists took on a new name of Kwan Yin or at least so the story goes. I think it is actually the daughter voice that can be seen in, my opinion, Bet Kol, Shekinah and Magdalene. On one of these pages what I found interesting was that an author found that Nu Kwa, the wife of whom we are contemplating as Luciferic incarnation of sorts, was actually the Lucifer incarnation itself. How stunning that one would find this. I am not sure if it is directed at the woman being the devil from a meanspirited place or if it is actually from a studied position of thought.

You are right that they seem to be mythical beings versus having been physically incarnate. I have found a man who is a historical figure which seems to be the 'son' of this Fu Hi and is considered to be matched with Osiris among other 'father/son' like streams. Now he isn't a son in the normal sense rather I can sense a connection between what they both brought. Kind of like how I can sense the connection between the Daughter Voices of God.

Now Fu Hi and Nu Kwa both have fishtails and are entertwined when creating. This might be where we have the symbol of Yin and Yang. You have found a place where we can begin. And that is so amazing!!! I think you hit on something really so important and I am wondering how you found this? How were you led to this particular 'myth' if you don't mind sharing?

This morning I wrote a quip wondering where Kwan Yin fits in. Well lo and behold I bought a book while looking on these things called Ancient Mirrors of Womanhood by Merlin Stone. And in here I found my first reference to Kwan Yin and Nu Kwa. How stunning. And not to be underdone:) I sign, for some reason Blessed Be as a salutation. I remember looking at that and thinking 'oh that is too much dottie' but I smiled and left it anyway. I was feeling a bit how I feel when I notice the Sophia energy within me or surrounding me. Now, what has come home to me after a full day riding around smiling through an excruciating headache is that upon the first three websites I checked out for this Nu Kwa -Kwan Yin connection they each have the salutation of Blessed Be! at the bottom of their pages.

Now, these little group of coincidences may be marked as such but for one who wakens to Magdalene one is well aware of her sublte ways of saying 'hello' and there is nothing one can say but Blessed Be!

Oh joy joy joy joy joy joy joy,

d

http://www.room23.de/1473.html
http://home.pacific.net.au/~ffionam/specials.htm
http://www.womanspiritrising.nu/what'sin.htm

and for anyone wanting to see an August 2004 calendar for goddess days this can be found at
http://owlsdottir.com/calendar/august.htm

These are not scholarship sites or anything, they are just a little to show where others have noted a connection between the Nu Kwa, wife of Fu Hi and my girl Kwan Yin who then leads me to Magdalene:) Calendar page is a cutey.:) whew

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Here's a site I like as well regarding Kwan Yin and speaks to the male/female changing factors.

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/3860/goddess/kuanyin.html

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 12:51 am
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Gisele wrote:

In Chinese literature four holy men are cited as the authors of the Book of Changes, namely, Fu Hsi, King Wen, the Duke of Chou, and Confucius. Fu Hsi is a legendary figure representing the era of hunting and fishing and of the invention of cooking. The fact that he is designated as the inventor of the linear signs of the Book of Changes means that they have been held to be of such antiquity that they antedate historical memory...

Hi Gisele,

I came back to your post to check the name you have given for the supposed Luciferic incarnation. And you have the same as Andrea! I have found a few other names besides the ones shared by Kim and they are Pao Hsi or Pi Hsi.

I bought a book a few months back called The I Ching of the Goddess by Barbara G. Walker. She seems to be the 'it' woman of the Goddess from a scholarly level, similar to Elaine Pagels it seems. It is pretty amazing that she actually denotes the I Ching as being of the Feminine Divine and that this is what was achieved through Nu Kwa and Fu Hsi.

Ms. Walker has the feminine aspect changing around the time of Confucious and turning into a Patriarachel point of view. I am not at all familiar with this to really know of what the changes are specifically or even if there were any. The other name you mention King Wen is noted by Ms. Walker as the chief culprit of the mixing up of the natural foundation of the I Ching. She goes onto show how King Wen's formations hold no consistancy and that the real I Ching proceeds through Fu Hsi's undertaking.

Once again however we find the world forming from the 'Mother Deep' the 'Tao', or in other words the 'Mothers' Womb'. I am having a very hard and bothered time by finding once again these things mixed up and hidden. I remember this exasperated feeling when finding the Magdalene and what had been hidden. I am not even talking about my Lazarus understanding rather the fact that she was an absolutely stunning individual and the Messenger of Christ thrown away by men who used her sexuality to higher their own claims.

Ms. Walker notes on page 13:

"There must have been a compelling reason for taking apart so nicely balanced an arragement as Fu Hsi's, mixing it up, and destroying all its former elegance. It may well have been the same reason that led other patriarchal societies to destroy reminders of earlier matriarchal works throughout the world: to batten down temples of the Goddess despite their beauty, to burn pagan libraries despite the value of their books, to deny the sovereignty of nature despite its apparent inevitability. Like Jewish, Christian, and Islamic patriarchates, China's Confucian hierarchies attacked every aspect of the earlier culture that revered motherhood as the world-creating principle, established all family names upon the sign for "woman," and practiced sexual worship of the female power that was supposed to be the source of all mind, rationality, and inspiration."

Why oh why oh why,
Dottie

p.s. A few months back when I bought this book I had no understanding at all when reading it. I didn't have a connection until Fu Hsi and Nu Kwa and what a difference today. Maybe my angel knew I would have spent my whole vacation on this new stream and decided to let it go for the time being. Thank goodeness for Anthroposophy Tomorrow! and Kim, Andrea, Gisele and Christine as well as those that hold the space for learning. Thank you!

...................................................................................................................................

From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Feb 1, 2004 4:27 am
Subject: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Dear Dottie and all,

this thread is leading us, I believe, on a twofold path. One side is about the "male"-"female" matter inside mankind's evolution and Spiritual Science's research.

If you were able to read Italian or to gain a good translation you could able to havea look to a "triad" of Antho-books written about auch a topic by an Italian Spiritual Teacher, Massimo Scaligero (1906-1980), Dell'Amore Immortale " (Immortal Love), "Graal", and "Iside Sophia La Dea Ignota (The Unknown Goddess).

He wrote this "triad" not only to fulfill a kind of his own task inside the Spiritual movement but also to communicate the actual fruit of his own private and personal life's experience, throwing a light on a path that im itself is able to become a true sea of misunderstandings and falsehoods think about the rumours about Steiner and OTO or what has been written in the gossip pamphlet by c.mc Coun) My regret here is that I'm not able to translate or summarize it for a couple of reasons: most of all the lack of time !

The second side is about the picture of this "triple Event", aka Lucifer, Christ and Ahriman in the flesh.

To summarize we can say that Lucifer helped to build a spiritual wisdom able to offer a kind of "preliminary vessel" to support the Light of Christ after the Mystery of Golgotha till the birth of the Consciousness Soul Age and the Michael School. This is, obviuosly, the "Celestial Lucifer" gesture, while we can see also the dark side of this Spiritual Being mainly in his link to Ahriman. This one, "at his worst" is near to be in the flesh, as we can understand, by several studies about it. So the "dark intelligence" is deepky at work (and we know also that behind Ahriman there is also a more powerful Beast, namely 600 60 6), and while Lucifer's embodiment was counterbalanced by Golgotha's Events, the main difference between Luciferic and Ahrimanic embodiment lies in the fact that we presently are in the Conciusness Soul Age, So this story is no more a pure "Gods' Battle", Mankind has grown up and we are alla in it. We have been given all the Michaelic and Christic means to fight such a struggle. Moreover Accxording to J Ben Aharon and the "Imagination" the Second Mystery of Golgotha took place following the work of the Michael School in the Spiritual Realm near the Earth, Now the giant task is to make it real ALSO on the visible-physical Earth herself.

Andrea the Italian

...................................................................................................................................

From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Mon Feb 2, 2004 8:26 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Dear Dottie

Give us a break, that is the males of this earth. The females has used the Moon cycle to develop the female side, can't you give the males at least the first half of the Earth cycle to develop in, and then lets see what we can get out of the second half, together ;-)

Dottie:

Ms. Walker has the feminine aspect changing around the time of Confucious and turning into a Patriarachel point of view.

We start with a matriarchate, because that is what we have from the time of the Moon. Then we need to develop the masculine energies, and therefore the patriarchal structures has to take over. And, yes, it was not especially nice times which came out of it, but it was new energies which needed to be educated, so it is what could be expected.

All development happens through errors which is corrected.

Dottie:

Ms. Walker notes on page 13:

"There must have been a compelling reason for taking apart so nicely balanced an arragement as Fu Hsi's, mixing it up, and destroying all its former elegance. It may well have been the same reason that led other patriarchal societies to destroy reminders of earlier matriarchal works throughout the world: to batten down temples of the Goddess despite their beauty, to burn pagan libraries despite the value of their books, to deny the sovereignty of nature despite its apparent inevitability. Like Jewish, Christian, and Islamic patriarchates, China's Confucian hierarchies attacked every aspect of the earlier culture that revered motherhood as the world-creating principle, established all family names upon the sign for "woman," and practiced sexual worship of the female power that was supposed to be the source of all mind, rationality, and inspiration."

Why oh why oh why,

Things change, and to learn new things, man has to forget old things. Just see how static the chinese culture has been for thousends of years, until now. The communists had destroyed their culture, so now they have to develop a new knowledge/culture.

It's not better in the western culture, just see how much knowledge/culture is dying to day, replaced with stupid soap operas, and the like.

I hope people can come up with some really interesting knowledge/culture, when they see how empty their world is.

Kuan Yin, revered throughout Asia for thousands of years, is the Chinese Goddess of infinite mercy and compassion. Her name means "she who listens to the sounds [suffering] of the world."
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/3860/goddess/kuanyin.html

The description of Kuan Yin looks much like Steiner's description of the being who 'Educates/Builds the earth'. When she feels the great pain of man she calls Christ, to cure the sickness together.

Love,
Kim

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Feb 3, 2004 10:46 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Kim wrote:

Give us a break, that is the males of this earth. The females has used the Moon cycle to develop the female side, can't you give the males at least the first half of the Earth cycle to develop in, and then lets see what we can get out of the second half, together ;-)

Hey Kim,

Hmm. I think your time is up and now we need to find the balance of the two:) So, this means we have to uncover once again that which was hidden so we can bring both parts together.

Funny thing tonight, I started my Kabbala class at the clubhouse and it seems to me that Christianity and Judaism are running parallel streams. And, they both need what the other has: Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

In thinking on this whole male/female thing it dawns on me there really isn't too much more for me to study in this realm. All I am doing, within my self, and outside my self, is connecting the spots where they come together in past history, physical or mystical, and trying to share this with others. Suddenly I feel like someone put a pin to my balloon and I do not desire to keep trying to show it. Maybe it is the concepts of Chuang Tze that have affected me so greatly: the ambition of a thing versus the action of being. Is this not Isis?

Kim:

We start with a matriarchate, because that is what we have from the time of the Moon. Then we need to develop the masculine energies, and therefore the patriarchal structures has to take over. And, yes, it was not especially nice times which came out of it, but it was new energies which needed to be educated, so it is what could be expected.

Dottie

And now what? Are we or do we turn to find the other part that seems not to be talked about or even known except in some abstract form? Steiners idea of taking on the Sophia seems second string compared to the other studies I see and it seems to me that this is what we would strive for if we were really following the path he laid out. But that kind of comes back to the question Joel has put out regarding what is Anthroposophy. It seems there really are two different streams involved within the one group. And it would seem they would be at loggerheads to get along in a deep understanding way. Kind of like Lucifer and Christ: each is missing a thing without the other.

Kim:

Things change, and to learn new things, man has to forget old things. Just see how static the chinese culture has been for thousends of years, until now. The communists had destroyed their culture, so now they have to develop a new knowledge/culture.

Dottie

I know things have to change. I guess I am just bothered by the fact that because the Feminine isn't mentioned it isn't important or at least it is secondary. But that would not be true.

In my Kabbala class tonight I came to understand there is a midrash from the very beginning of Judaism study that speaks to the feminine. And, it is the idea that 1) women were not mentioned as being of importance yet it is considered that the twelve sons of Jacob had 12 twin sisters. That even Cain and Able had twin sisters. TWIN SISTERS. Hello. Seriously.

Christianity has hidden so much and I just do not understand why they did to the extent they did. I mean it actually looks corrupt from just about the third century A.D. Numerology is very big in the Kabbala and it is considered devil worship by the Christians as is Astrology. I can understand that it had to have happened but now trying to uncover that which is hidden is so frustrating because ...well I guess maybe I have no patience for the process.

Kim:

Kuan Yin, revered throughout Asia for thousands of years, is the Chinese Goddess of infinite mercy and compassion. Her name means "she who listens to the sounds [suffering] of the world."

Dottie

God, she is so beautiful. She really is. And to have her connected to Nu Kwa just seems to deepen it for me. I actually just bought a little clay statue of her and she sits directly in front of me when I do my meditation. It's just a physical reminder for a call to prayer and groundedness that makes me smile when I see her. It's like 'yeah, now what'. And She is now a He by the way:) which follows my study of Magdalene.

Kim:

The description of Kuan Yin looks much like Steiner's description of the being who 'Educates/Builds the earth'. When she feels the great pain of man she calls Christ, to cure the sickness together.

Dottie

This sounds like the Shekinah within the Holy of Holies and whom Jerome hid in a cave from his Jewish counter parts.

Kim, if Christ and Lucifer are each within us doesn't that make us all one in the end? The deeper I go within my self I get a sense of unity of the One and the Hiearchies just seem to fall away.

Pondering,

d

Knowledge without understanding leads nowhere

...................................................................................................................................

From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 2:43 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Hello Dottie

Dottie:

Hmm. I think your time is up and now we need to find the balance of the two:) So, this means we have to uncover once again that which was hidden so we can bring both parts together.

Kim:

The first part of the Earth cycle is called Mars and the second is called Mercury.

Dottie:

Funny thing tonight, I started my Kabbala class at the clubhouse and it seems to me that Christianity and Judaism are running parallel streams. And, they both need what the other has: Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

Kim:

Yes, that is right. A tragic story for all parts. About 2000 years from now the Jews should find Christ (and not Christianity). The people incarnated in Israel, at the time of Christ, should incarnate there again in less than 2000 years, but incarnated through Europe in between.

Dottie:

In thinking on this whole male/female thing it dawns on me there really isn't too much more for me to study in this realm. All I am doing, within my self, and outside my self, is connecting the spots where they come together in past history, physical or mystical, and trying to share this with others. Suddenly I feel like someone put a pin to my balloon and I do not desire to keep trying to show it. Maybe it is the concepts of Chuang Tze that have affected me so greatly: the ambition of a thing versus the action of being. Is this not Isis?

Kim:

And Isis without Osiris is Lucifer.
Action of being is Wisdom and Will, and that is Isis and Osiris.
It is funny, everybody is talking about Wisdom, but nobody is talking about Will. It is especially funny, because that is the primary reason to invent the masculine part in this play. And it is tragic, because it is there Ahriman attacks.

You need Wisdom to do the right, and Will to do! The greatest act of Will was Christ's deed on Golgatha. A deed's life length depends on the will you put in to it. Take Gandhi and Martin Luther King.

Our future goal is to join Wisdom and Will!

Kim:

We start with a matriarchate, because that is what we have from the time of the Moon. Then we need to develop the masculine energies, and therefore the patriarchal structures has to take over. And, yes, it was not especially nice times which came out of it, but it was new energies which needed to be educated, so it is what could be expected.

Dottie

And now what? Are we or do we turn to find the other part that seems not to be talked about or even known except in some abstract form? Steiners idea of taking on the Sophia seems second string compared to the other studies I see and it seems to me that this is what we would strive for if we were really following the path he laid out. But that kind of comes back to the question Joel has put out regarding what is Anthroposophy. It seems there really are two different streams involved within the one group. And it would seem they would be at loggerheads to get along in a deep understanding way.

Kim:

Sophia/Michael is about the Wisdom and the Will, and that is about 'To Create'.
I think, that much of what Joel write about,,, in that letter,,, is Maya.


Dottie:

Kind of like Lucifer and Christ: each is missing a thing without the other.

Kim:

You for forgot Ahriman. Christ is not in opposition to either of them, but in the equilibrium of them. Those two bad boys are not here by accident, but because we need them, to learn to Create in freedom. But we should always remember that Christ is not in opposition to any of them, but in equilibrium between them, otherwise we are ending together with one of the bad boys.

Kim:

Things change, and to learn new things, man has to forget old things. Just see how static the chinese culture has been for thousends of years, until now. The communists had destroyed their culture, so now they have to develop a new knowledge/culture.

Dottie

I know things have to change. I guess I am just bothered by the fact that because the Feminine isn't mentioned it isn't important or at least it is secondary. But that would not be true.

Kim:

By the way, I now think I have found the reason for why woman use their whole life educating their husbands;-)
You see, the feminine powers of the Moon has been necessary to educate the new raw masculine powers of Earth. They are now going to learn to work together with the masculine powers and man has to learn, that the one he is married with, is not his mother.

Dottie:

In my Kabbala class tonight I came to understand there is a midrash from the very beginning of Judaism study that speaks to the feminine. And, it is the idea that 1) women were not mentioned as being of importance yet it is considered that the twelve sons of Jacob had 12 twin sisters. That even Cain and Able had twin sisters. TWIN SISTERS. Hello. Seriously.

Kim:

Beautiful! and midrash is a good search word for a new area I haven't been in before.

Dottie:

Christianity has hidden so much and I just do not understand why they did to the extent they did. I mean it actually looks corrupt from just about the third century A.D. Numerology is very big in the Kabbala and it is considered devil worship by the Christians as is Astrology. I can understand that it had to have happened but now trying to uncover that which is hidden is so frustrating because ...well I guess maybe I have no patience for the process.

Kim:

We are back with the Creative Will. Paul was chosen because of his extreme Will power, not of his Wisdom. John the evangelist saved the deeper knowledge for those who can 'read'.
This is part of the tragic following that the Jews didn't recognize Christ.

Dottie

God, she is so beautiful. She really is. And to have her connected to Nu Kwa just seems to deepen it for me. I actually just bought a little clay statue of her and she sits directly in front of me when I do my meditation. It's just a physical reminder for a call to prayer and groundedness that makes me smile when I see her. It's like 'yeah, now what'. And She is now a He by the way:) which follows my study of Magdalene.

Kim:

The description of Kuan Yin looks much like Steiner's description of the being who 'Educates/Builds the earth'. When she feels the great pain of man she calls Christ, to cure the sickness together.

Dottie

This sounds like the Shekinah within the Holy of Holies and whom Jerome hid in a cave from his Jewish counter parts.

Kim:

You know that one of Steiner's messages is that all the religions in reality describes the same deities, in different language and in different 'clothes'.

Dottie:

Kim, if Christ and Lucifer are each within us doesn't that make us all one in the end? The deeper I go within my self I get a sense of unity of the One and the Hiearchies just seem to fall away.

Kim:

Don't forget Ahriman;-)
I don't think that Love between human beings where possible if we were not One and we are One in God! (We talk so much about Christ, that we have a tendency to forget God).
By the way, Christ is Love, Lucifer is egoism.

Love,
Kim

Knowledge without understanding leads nowhere and without Will you don't get there.

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 6:09 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Kim:

The first part of the Earth cycle is called Mars and the second is called Mercury.

Hey Kim, and this means what exactly in terms of our spirits?

Dottie:

And, they both need what the other has: Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

Kim:

Yes, that is right. A tragic story for all parts.

Dottie

And what is so tragic about it is that this is the space where a Rabbi has such a hard time with a Christian. We can all talk the facial level of things but as soon as it gets to the 'love' of a thing that is not our physical family we have issues. And this is where the Christ comes in. I can see that Christians have the capability to grow knowledge, and will they, but the Jews growing Christ seems a bit difficult as they refuse to look at the possibility that the Messiah has come.

First lesson was put to me about 4 various levels of relationships we have with others. Now, the problem with experiencing Christ within is that I love everyone I meet. I am called by my self to love the cashier at the bookstore as I love my family. Everyone I meet is a brother, sister, mother, father, to me. And this finds no understanding with the Rabbi and the four other Jewish girls in my group. And to me this is the Christ.

So, here's a question for the tribe: I ask you to hold my camera for me as a favor while I go on vacation. (don't know why I am not taking it with me:) And you agree. Now, when I return you have told me that it was stolen but you had placed it in a very secure place and did the most you could to keep it safe. Who is responsible for this camera having been stolen? Should you who had agreed to do me this favor have to repay me the cost of my camera?

?
dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 8:14 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Hi Dottie

Kim:

The first part of the Earth cycle is called Mars and the second is called Mercury.

Hey Kim, and this means what exactly in terms of our spirits?

Kim:

Mars is of course where the masculine powers is educated. The time we are living in now are the Mercury part of the Earth cycle, and Mercury means communication (together with a lot more) between the masculine and feminine powers.

Dottie:

And, they both need what the other has: Jews need Christ and Christians need knowledge.

Kim:

Yes, that is right. A tragic story for all parts.

Dottie

And what is so tragic about it is that this is the space where a Rabbi has such a hard time with a Christian. We can all talk the facial level of things but as soon as it gets to the 'love' of a thing that is not our physical family we have issues. And this is where the Christ comes in. I can see that Christians have the capability to grow knowledge, and will they, but the Jews growing Christ seems a bit difficult as they refuse to look at the possibility that the Messiah has come.

Kim:

Here you have the biggest problem between Israel and the arabs. Both are tribe religions with no love for those outside the tribe.

First lesson was put to me about 4 various levels of relationships we have with others. Now, the problem with experiencing Christ within is that I love everyone I meet. I am called by my self to love the cashier at the bookstore as I love my family. Everyone I meet is a brother, sister, mother, father, to me. And this finds no understanding with the Rabbi and the four other Jewish girls in my group. And to me this is the Christ.

So, here's a question for the tribe: I ask you to hold my camera for me as a favor while I go on vacation. (don't know why I am not taking it with me:) And you agree. Now, when I return you have told me that it was stolen but you had placed it in a very secure place and did the most you could to keep it safe. Who is responsible for this camera having been stolen? Should you who had agreed to do me this favor have to repay me the cost of my camera?

Kim:

When I was younger I learnt that you should not put more confidence into a person than he could live up to. So the camera is lost.

The only solution, for you, is to understand your fellow beings better.

Time and reincarnation will hopefully solve the rest.

Kim

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 6:14 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Kim wrote:

When I was younger I learnt that you should not put more confidence into a person than he could live up to. So the camera is lost.

The only solution, for you, is to understand your fellow beings better.

Time and reincarnation will hopefully solve the rest.

Hey Kim,

Well it seems I argued for the point that it was the person who asked for the favors responsibility. Which everyone disagreed with. But the law of the Torah speaks to the point of this: if the man paid to have his friend watch the camera than it is the friends responsibility to repay the cost of the camera. If he had not paid it is the responsibility of the owner.

It all comes down to the point of money. And this is how the law is understood. No room for any feeling of sorts. It's this or it is that and no way around it.

You would have given up the colors of your ship (blue and gold) just as I had and so early on:)

Where to now Kim? Why all the learning? It seems it must be turned back out someway. The learning can not be just for ones self. It seems one would come to a point that the only thing to do is to share what one has learned. Steiner lived a life that he turned it back out over and over and over again and in a most magnificant way. The next thing seems to be one must find a way to organize the brain in such a manner that the concepts understood can be shared in some manner.

Did you read the point about Kwan Yin becoming a Buddha but turning it down to be a Bodhisattva on our planet? Something to live up to.

Treading water,

Dottie

...................................................................................................................................

From: Kim Munch Michelsen
Date: Thu Feb 5, 2004 12:05 pm
Subject: Re: Lucifer

Hello Dottie,

Dottie:

Well it seems I argued for the point that it was the person who asked for the favors responsibility. Which everyone disagreed with. But the law of the Torah speaks to the point of this: if the man paid to have his friend watch the camera than it is the friends responsibility to repay the cost of the camera. If he had not paid it is the responsibility of the owner.

It all comes down to the point of money. And this is how the law is understood. No room for any feeling of sorts. It's this or it is that and no way around it.

Kim:

You put your money in the bank (incidentally you know the 'owner'). There is a bank robbery, and they took 'your' money. Do you accept that?

No, that rule is commen sence.

The difference is in the story with the samaritan, those outside and inside, the unbelievers and the believers.

Christ made Love unconditional.

Dottie:

You would have given up the colors of your ship (blue and gold) just as I had and so early on:)

Where to now Kim? Why all the learning? It seems it must be turned back out someway. The learning can not be just for ones self. It seems one would come to a point that the only thing to do is to share what one has learned. Steiner lived a life that he turned it back out over and over and over again and in a most magnificant way. The next thing seems to be one must find a way to organize the brain in such a manner that the concepts understood can be shared in some manner.

Kim:

You sound like you have talked with Joel lately.

Fun by side, this is a difficult one. And I can't answer it. I can only give a few sentences.
You share by living!

It is your Love, Wisdom and Compassion which is your strength, and which you can give others. It was the same Steiner did.

You don't learn to teach others, you learn because Learning is Living! The joy when new revelations opens up for you. The joy of exchanging ideas with others. Giving your friend a hint when she is in a blind alley in her life. Also lonelyness, because there is no one you can talk with it about.

It is the learning process which is the central point, it is not so much what you learn.

We are born with a certain amount of curiosity and compassion (Luciferic positive energies). Ahriman is then working the rest of your life to remove your curiosity and compassion, but allowing you to boost your lower Luciferic Ego of all the knowlegde you have.

Dottie:

Did you read the point about Kwan Yin becoming a Buddha but turning it down to be a Bodhisattva on our planet? Something to live up to.

Kim:

Yes, or Christ exchanging the Sun with Earth. It must be worse than leaving California for UK ;-)

And magic in Love,

Kim

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Feb 4, 2004 5:49 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Kim wrote:

By the way, I now think I have found the reason for why woman use their whole life educating their husbands;-)

Kim!

Do you know this is really true? It really is. Even when I am sharing with women they get it and when sharing with men it is a whole different story. With men, not the ones on this list rather in my personal Hollyood/Los Angeles life, they actually have to have the experience over and over and over again before they understand the 'feeling/light' of a thing. It's as if women can easily sense/understand it but the men have to fight/counter it first.

That was a funny thing to have said:) glad I was home and not at the coffee shop.

Kim:

Beautiful! and midrash is a good search word for a new area I haven't been in before.

Dottie

Well, I have to watch my rabbi as he has a twinkle in his eye and a big belly reminding me of a mythical character himself. Midrash is a divining to a story in the Torah from what I can sense. But this one about the twelve twin sisters does not just come from mid air and he put a little kindegarden understanding to it that just said to me 'oops, he just let a cat out of a bag'. I was so shocked he had to stop the class for a minute due to my reaction. Can you imagine hearing ancient sages contemplated 'TWIN SISTERS' to the males and being me at that very moment.

Ah, Kim, this whole post allows me to smile this morning. I was feeling a little bereft last night when realizing I did not have any book I wanted to take with me to the coffee shop after class. I looked around at all my new books and my old books and couldn't find one. It's all within me. And then you come along with a perfect post that allows me to smile alot after a good nights rest and contemplate a new journey.

I am interested in knowing how long you studied Steiner and what other areas you have studied. What are the things that occurred or maybe the lessons that occurred in your life that lead you to have such a beautiful and I mean beautiful understanding. And to be able to tie it all together in such a 'mind' way as well. You really connect all these streams that come alive when I read your posts.

Andrea if you are listening in I am wondering if you, this is not a radio show dottie:) anyhow, I am wondering still how you came to know where a possible Lucifer incarnation was? Gisele did as well.

Ahriman is like Lazarus for me: Where the hell is he?

Wisdom and Will huh? Okay. That would seem to be the Chuang Tze way and what Steiner was trying to share.

Hmmmm,

Love,
d

...................................................................................................................................

From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Feb 5, 2004 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Lucifer

Kim:

You sound like you have talked with Joel lately.

Hey Kim,

I love what Joel has been sharing, especially since he has joined this list. He has such a wonderful overview of things that helps me to connect thoughts in a way that does not come natural to me. Although I do disagree with his point on who is an Anthroposophist: It's almost like saying one is not a Christian until one follows Christ exactly as Christ walked. There is a process.

Kim:

You share by living!

Dottie

I know. I was just sappy after having my Kabbalah class. I looked around and realized the place I have to go is inner and it feels so burdensom sometimes. Heavy in a way. Or maybe it's just that it takes a lot of energy to really allow oneself to walk into these spiritual worlds and then walk out again. How does one have the energy to do what Dr. Steiner did. I mean he lived his life and he entered into these worlds. Just astounding.

My Rabbi split open an apple to show a point and suddenly I am inner again and sensing the inner of things. I have tried so hard to not sense the inner any more as I wanted to build my mind to meet Steiner. But this is where one must go again after building the mind. For the mind only goes so far and then we have to reenter the sensing into for the balance/marriage.

Kim:

You don't learn to teach others, you learn because Learning is Living!

Dottie

No, I don't want to teach others, we do that naturally through example. I want to share with others. I am just frustrated by all the hiding of the Feminine. I mean She is everywhere. Even in the apple and her seeds. This whole Kabbalah thing is going to turn into the way they hid the feminine,or at least how She is revealed, I know it, and it has a saddening effect in my self. Do you know why the Tarot cards were originated? Do you know what they are trying to say? It's even in the male/female Jesus cards where we have Jesus with bubbs. Seriously. And Jesus even has red lipstick on. Everywhere I look I see this hidden thing that nobody is talking about. I mean Jesus with bubbs and lipstick. Really.

Kim:

We are born with a certain amount of curiosity and compassion (Luciferic positive energies). Ahriman is then working the rest of your life to remove your curiosity and compassion, but allowing you to boost your lower Luciferic Ego of all the knowlegde you have.

Dottie

That's a really good point Kim. It's good to keep doing those daily exercizes of Dr. Steiners. I think I am going to post them like the wc quotes of the day. I like especially the one where we have to look back at our daily events and see where we could have done a thing differently if so called. And then to look back on the whole weak. Whew.

Kim:

Yes, or Christ exchanging the Sun with Earth. It must be worse than leaving California for UK ;-)

And magic in Love,

Dottie

Christ exchanging the Sun with the Earth? And leaving Cali for UK does not even cross my mind:) Are you in the UK? I have heard that you folks get all that rain and clouds throughout the days. Not for me unless it is a sun shining smiley kind of rain. But now Dornach is calling me in a big way. I saw a book that shows her figure and boy is she beautiful. I hope I can go there this summer.

I have been thinking Kim about the Marriage at Cana and these vessels of water turned into wine. Now, that particular mystery is of the Feminine. And I relate it directly to the Lazarus raising. (again I use Lazarus out of respect for what others believe)

In all that Dr. Steiner speaks of I find he left out the Goddess and shed no light on her. He speaks of Isis and so forth but that is an abstract way of speaking on the historical figures that beheld this Feminine energy. In most of his findings he left a mystery for us to find and to uncover. He did not reveal Her.

The question I come to is this: Is it important that She be revealed now? I suggest the timing is right. This knowledge is making its way forth but it is not being truly discussed, that I can see, by the Anthroposophists. And I think it is important for them to do so if they so know her. Maybe they do not know of her and so they can not. Maybe this organization is so caught up in the male stream that they can not lead in that which needs to have Anthroposophical light shed upon it. It's almost as if there is this secret badge of honor that follows a male stream exclusively, speaking of Sophia as if She is not a true reality. It feels very lopsided in a way.

Douglas Klotz is a Theosophists and he is shedding great light that leads from the Christ energy to the Sophia energy. And it is his own work versus repeating what Ms. Blatvasky had to say about a thing. I am jealous for Steiner students to lead on this issue. Maybe the books Steiner speaks of Her have still not been revealed in English. Maybe it is there but not unfolded yet. We will see. That leads me to wonder if Mr. Powell is also a Theosophists. For some reason I think he is.

Anyhow, the Marriage at Cana and Johns beheading and the raising of Lazarus. In here is where I believe the steps to the main mystery are discovered.

Looking at the Kabbalah there are five levels of the soul. Do you know which ones line up with Dr. Steiners?
1. Nefesh - vegetative soul
2. Ruach - the emotional soul
3. Neshama - the intellectual soul
4. Chaya - the transcendental soul
5. Yechida - the unified soul

AND there are 10 attributes (The Ten Sefirot) which
3 are intellect
7 of emotions

Hmmm.

Twin sisters. Who knew??????

Love,
Dottie

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