Peter F Chimes In

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:03 am
Subject: Peter F chimes in

On the WC list, Peter Farrell writes a comment to our previous thread about Rudolf Steiner's moral character, which he appends to Peter Staudenmaier's tirade about Daniel and myself twisting Diana's original argument about Steiner opposing (speaking against) modern science. Farrell's main theme is his argument against the notion that Rudolf Steiner's personal moral character was a noble one, and with this in mind, he seeks to establish that Steiner was a dishonest man.

Jan 23, Peter Farrell writes:

Peter Staudenmaier discussed some of the pitfall's Diana Winters encountered in trying to talk to Anthroposophists about science elsewhere. I would like to draw your attention to something below about Einstein that Peter has extracted for us.

Peter S wrote
He considered Einstein's theories a prime example of "extreme abstraction" which has "deviated from actuality".

and Peter pointed to here where the full text may be found

Peter F. continues. Within this lecture the first example that Steiner uses as an argument against Einstein concerns various stones and a person in a box far away from any other object (such as a planet). This is a rudimentary description of one of the essential ideas in Einstein's theory of general relativity which is about the indistinguishability of gravity and acceleration. The time this lecture was given (1918) predates the first serious experimental test of General Relativity by Eddington in 1919 (see for a popular account). Many other tests have been carried out in the subsequent 85 years. Was it ok for Steiner to argue in 1918 that Einstein's theories differed from the actual before this test?

Of course it was "OK" for Steiner to argue the way he did in this lecture. In this particular context, it makes no difference whether or not Einstein's theories had been tested. Steiner cites Einstein as an example of how deeply humanity has sunk into the abstractions of Maya, the great illusion of the physical universe. What needs to be kept in mind is that Rudolf Steiner was, more than anything else, a proclaimer of the Christ, and one of the most crucial utterances by Christ was, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36). So Farrell might as well ask if it was OK for Jesus Christ to argue that the reality of Caesar differed from the reality of actual humanity: the kingdom within.

This point seems to be completely lost on Farrell when he reads the lecture at hand. Here are a few pointers:

".....present-day man has entirely lost consciousness of the fact that that which belongs to the whole man can no more be discovered in the physical world than in the visible stellar world. For it is absolutely impossible to gain a true perception even of the visible starry heavens, unless man combines with the outer physical life the super-physical in his considerations - that super-physical part of his life through which he passes between death and re-birth."

"The knowledge gained through anatomy and physiology is not real knowledge, for we do not by means of this investigation look into the actual interior of man; it is an illusion to believe that we do."

"Now you will perhaps say that this world which we view during the time between death and re-birth must be a very small one indeed. But spatial dimensions do not count at all. It is the fullness or poverty of the content that matters, not the size. If we combine all we observe in the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms, and add thereto the starry heavens, it would not compare in richness with the mysteries within Man himself. The real process is approximately as follows. We lose the structural forces of the head when we pass over in death. They have completed their office. But then the spiritual world takes up the structural forces of the remaining (lower) organism, which from being inner experience belong now to the periphery, and transforms them in such a way that when the time is ripe, from out of the spiritual world the human head is determined in the womb of the mother."

These are some of Steiner's remarks before he moves on to a description of abstract physics - abstract in the sense that it tells us nothing about the Real Man between death and rebirth, and between falling asleep and awakening. When the human being is outside his body in sleep or after death, he is interacting with the planets and the stars, the heavenly bodies, as living beings. Through external physical science, we are seduced through various abstractions to believe that the universe consists primarily of dead matter, except for the theory that there may be "life out there" - bacteria or unheard-of monsters or techno-initiates or whatever. Einstein himself made a lot of "thought experiments" as he called them, about time travel and what have you. His ideas have revolutionized our culture and inspired all kinds of Hollywood fantasies as well. That does not mean that his theories cannot be tested and put into practice, which is happening at NASA, but Steiner's proclamation of the Spirit, and Christ's proclamation of the Kingdom, these are not of Einstein's and NASA's world. According to Steiner, there is nothing physical in outer space beyond the earth, but the lights we see in the sky as stars are living beings reaching out to us with love. When we look to the sun, we look out of space into the flow of time, whence Christ was born, who gave time back to man, who had become a space being. In other words, everything we imagine and theorize about the heavenly bodies, and make grand plans about at NASA, are illusions, because the real universe is inside ourselves.

It is in this context we must understand Steiner's approach to Einstein in this particular lecture:

"Abstraction is deeply rooted in our ordinary conception of the planetary system, and it produces today some very strange results. For example, a great deal of popular literature is permeated with glorification of an idea which originates from Einstein."

Of course everything I have pointed out here about the kingdom within and life among the stars between death and rebirth is totally lost on an arch-materialist who is exclusively looking for a materialistic-mechanical critique of Einstein's theory and its tests. So he misses altogether what Steiner is saying in this lecture, that our ordinary conception of the planetary system is so abstract and materialistic that we have lost the ability to understand our real inner relationship to the cosmos. And when this point is completely lost to a "critical" reader, he even contrives to call it dishonesty.

Peter Farrell:

Is it still ok for Anthroposophists to accept these arguments in the years after?

Of course it is, but personally, I prefer to update them by taking a sharp look at what is happening in science and technology today, at NASA, in science fiction movies from Hollywood and so on. Like about ten years ago when a couple of brain surgeons in San Diego claimed to have discovered that the human experience of an "I" is an illusion chemically produced by a certain spot in the brain. This was in Newsweek or Time Magazine, and the reader's letters followed in plenty from universities and churches and Buddhists and philosophers and so on. And a sharp PLANS cultist would naturally say that of course, those guys are brain surgeons and they know this stuff better than anybody else, and they have proven Nietzsche right about God being dead, so let's bury that stupid deity once and for all and show the finger to the anthro's while we're at it.

Peter Farrell:

Steiner also talked about Einstein's theory of special relativity (that's the one with time dilation and the twin paradox and things getting shorter in the direction of travel and so on) in the same lectures that Peter S has quoted from. At the time of these lectures by Steiner (1918) there had been numerous experimental tests of special relativity (some examples are available here early experiments).

Those experimental tests do not make the abstract materialistic world-conception (that Steiner is getting at) less illusory. What is currently being dug up from Mars does not make it all less illusory. And it is precisely when such illusions get a strong foothold in our culture to the point of upstaging the "kingdom within" entirely, that the results can be sinister and dangerous. I'm not only talking about the revolutionary development of weaponry during the last hundred years here, but the fact that so much of scientific research has been hijacked by the military-industrial complex, including NASA.

Steiner did point out that we need these illusion during our present stage of consciousness evolution, but that it is very important to keep in mind that they are indeed illusions.

Peter Farrell:

The reason I bring these issues up concerns another thread in anthroposphy tomorrow which concerned Steiner's personal moral character. It is argued (correctly in my view but others may differ) that whether Steiner was a sado masochist or not has no bearing on the value of his scientific or philosophical writings.

This argument is correct in Farrell's view? In other words, he would have no compunctions about learning philosophy from a sado-masochist? As for science, he would have mo moral scruples about adopting and continuing medical research originating from Nazi concentration camps?

Peter Farrell:

Honesty is a different matter. If Steiner was dishonest (and I believe this can be demonstrated in his writings and recorded lectures) then it can only be through independent verification (or falsification) of each his claims that we can judge his work in contradiction to the claim available at the Steiner archive:

"No person is qualified to form a judgment on the contents of this work, who has not acquired - through the School of Spiritual Science itself or in an equivalent manner recognized by the School of Spiritual Science - the requisite preliminary knowledge."

The preposterous falsifications of Steiner's ideas by the PLANS-WC cult demonstrate the wisdom behind these honest words. The members of PLANS and their cohorts on the WC have proven time and time again that they are utterly disqualified to form any judgement on the contents of Rudolf Steiner's works.

Peter Farrell:

The argument for Steiner's dishonesty comes in two parts. Firstly there are examples, particularly where Steiner is lecturing to people who are not educated in the sciences where he misleads them on topics about which Steiner was evidently well read (the lecture on Einstein in "From Elephants to Einstein" is a good example of this), presumably for the purposes of convincing them to be Anthroposophists.

This is another example of how grotesquely Steiner's intentions can be twisted. Steiner's intention was not to convince anybody to "be anthroposophists" but to reveal to them the reality of the Christ and the Gospels. And precisely because the scientific mode of thinking has been taking hold of humanity since the 1840's, when classical education was replaced by technical-scientific education, and thus weakened the power of religious faith considerably, Steiner offered a new path to the Christ based upon a mode of thinking derived from the disciplines developed through scientific endeavor.

Farrell, however, is apparently blind to all this.

Peter Farrell:

Secondly, the instructions given to the organisers of Waldorf schools to keep the true nature of them from the parents and children who are participating. This is of course a clear example of the end justifying the means.

Perhaps a Waldorf-oriented subscriber to this list can comment on what is here said about instructions given to the organisers of Waldorf schools.


Tarjei Straume

"The worst readers are those who proceed like plundering soldiers: they pick up a few things they use, soil and confuse the rest, and blaspheme the whole." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Mixed Opinions and Maxims


From: holderlin66
Date: Sat Jan 24, 2004 8:20 pm
Subject: Science and Discernment

--- In, Tarjei Straume wrote:

That does not mean that his theories cannot be tested and put into practice, which is happening at NASA, but Steiner's proclamation of the Spirit, and Christ's proclamation of the Kingdom, these are not of Einstein's and NASA's world. According to Steiner, there is nothing physical in outer space beyond the earth, but the lights we see in the sky as stars are living beings reaching out to us with love. When we look to the sun, we look out of space into the flow of time, whence Christ was born, who gave time back to man, who had become a space being. In other words, everything we imagine and theorize about the heavenly bodies, and make grand plans about at NASA, are illusions, because the real universe is inside ourselves.

Bradford comments;

Well I have had this happen before; my fingers slip and the entire post vanishes. I wish I knew how to get that lost, etherically eaten, exercise in thought back, but alas. This is my second attempt. Everything is always an attempt. I can remember what I was outlining. It had to do with Einstein - TiMe - The Philadelphia Experiment - Astral Body - Karma and Living Etheric lock in to TIme SPace.

I kind of began looking at Dr. Steiner standing in Occult Science at the edge of the Universe. Don't laugh just yet. I mean by this, that as far as Earth Evolution - Moon Evolution = Sun Evolution and Saturn Evolution was concerned, Steiner was able to loosen his research faculties and follow the first inception of Physical Idea of Man, back to the Saturn Evolution to the point where Man was NOT.

Mind you, Steiner really describes a frightening Time Experience. I have wandered back to how Victor Hugo made his way, during his Hebrides Initiation to the Edge of Saturn - The far Planet Consciousness of Saturn not the primal origins of Man. Hugo's experience was where Time Beings filter all that mighty cultures and individuals produce that splatter on the far rings of Saturns Wall of Time. Hugo describes this Wall where layer upon layer of human efforts, like a collosal layer cake, lie like wasted relics in Times Heap. For Hugo it was hardly an abstract fantasy. It was the nature of Initation on the lonely Far Point of the Hebrides, before Hugo became Hugo, that took Hugo beyond, beyond.

But Steiner stood at the place, the precipice of where Man is not. The edge of the Nothiningness that beyond which, the very rudiments of the idea of the physical human seed thought...was not! It is hard to picture this in Time. Going back into Time. Being a witness to Time. This indeed out Einstein's Einstein, because Einstein is just dealing with the fatal, final results of matter as we see it and Time and Space as we see it now. Now that appears very abstract, but let me bring it closer to home.

PSYOPS, a covert group that do a great deal of mischief in the Military Industrial Complex, practice and teach Remote viewing techniques. On one hand we can consider what Astral Projection means, but Steiner went well beyond Astral Projection. One doesn't know if a God, or the very Astral Body of Christ, which Steiner had operating in him, held Steiner at the edge of BEFORE THIS HUMANITY DOES NOT EXIST, and where the first germ of Something like us, begins. Because Steiner took his Consciousness out that far. We have every right to consider the logic of Occult Science an Outline as the finest work of Science every contributed to human history. Flat Out, You can't Touch This!

In my other post I didn't really explore the above in exactly the same way. Time is a reality and Space is a reality and these all arose before we started to get on with this Galactic -Zodiacal - Planetary Complex we have now. Science might get us to Stephen Hawkings theories, mountains of theories, but that would not explain mineral; plant; animal; and human demarcations and developments. But to explain mineral - plant - animal - Human and having this glove, this hand inside the glove, Ego-Astral-Etheric-Physical structure means that it took these great sweeps of Time-Warmth-Space before our senses could sit so cleverly in what we now call "Lets send tin cans to Mars". Therefore flat out Science is looking to Spiritual Science to complete the picture.

In the previous post I went into explanations of how Einstein and Tesla apparently, in Navy Legend, contributed to "The Philadelphia Experiment". My point was that in attempts of move whole navies behind enemy lines, Matter - without the consideration that the Sailors in the experiment had etheric and astral bodies as well as physical bodies - found that transfering dead matter is one thing, but lifting the entire Time Body out of Time or Space had grave, serious and legendary effects on plopping sailors down in the middle of metal walls or half stuck in the decks of ships and, that their astral bodies ignited.. as I said, is legendary. But it raises questions, real questions.

But from this, I asked the question of how can one move the physical, atomic table, as to say disassemble the human being's unique atomic structure and re-assemble it again in another spot. We call this piece of Science Fiction "Beam Me Aboard". The problems are not just the atomic table of elements, yet each person has a unique composition that - Listen carefully - we would entrust to a computer to reassemble us again. Now here are the two points I wanted to make in my first attempt.

Firstly, after Christ is murdered and his body, disappears, He reappears in a solid physical form making a beach fire and a fish fry for the Disciples. He walks along a road, has a meal, speaks, can be touched, and feels weight, density, and fleshlike. He isn't walking like a Robot or Terminator 3. He appears this way several times. In other words Matter was at Christ's discretion. Christ had discretionary use, from out of His Higher Spiritual Faculties, specific matter co-ordination. This is irksome to Science. Yet it is part of everything science desires, but touching spiritual science is like poison.

Steiner is hated because he takes the arbitrary fun out of walking blindly and bouncing off the walls of creation, oblivious of Beings who would shatter him, and ending up in the Matrix wastebasket of failed human missions. In other words a lot of Beings want humanity to get through this trial so that the ghosts in the machine don't eat us. So people hate Steiner because he set down some basic ground rules and really reviewed the play manuals of science.

This type of discretionary use of assembling and disassembling the whole construct of a human being that the Christ had, is disturbing. Science tries in every which way to wiggle around the issue. Science Fiction tries to find any which way to express some idea like this. It isn't satisfied with what Spiritual Science has to say about how the human form is not merely matter. Not merely Soul and not merely Spirit, but it has technical scientific relationships to the etheric world, and the astral world. Not only this, but Science does like the idea that humanity will develop higher and higher faculties. Science likes, loves and wallows in its current Sense Media Infatuation with itself.

Now it may be alright to some that some computer should be able to assemble and disassemble us or beings, like in "The Fly" but, as you know, there are concrete glitches. Besides you have to put your trust in a power source that is not humanistically, Goetheanistically and Scientifically discretionary towards your own Karma, Astral and I AM structure. That is why, currently, the Gods invented Reincarnation as a way to transfer fully developed Star Equations, us.

Secondly, in my previous attempt, lost, I brought up the Fission Factor. This fission and fusion factor as Science is very disturbing. Currently we follow the great Prophet Oppenheimer, probably next to Nietzsche, one of Ahriman's favorite Sons of the Revolution. Oppenheimer is the St. Paul of Ahriman and Nietzsche is the Moses of the Ahrimanic testament. Thus Spake (mockingly) Zarathustra. (many of you probably don't see the humor in Ahriman's title.)

When Christ Sweated Blood and the Transfiguration overshadowed the disciples, Christ was directly under the fission factor of containing within His Jesus designed and Zarathustrian and Buddha maintained higher bodies, an infusion of Love Bestowed, discretionary Light transforming and re-making of = Listen to This = Remaking of the conditions of Saturn - Sun - Moon and Earth evolution.

The result of this evolution was Humanity and Death. All well and good. But in the future humanity would be able to grasp, and now we return to all the details of Science - that the higher being of Man will be able to develop and contain the riddle of the atomic table. In other words Christ was the Pivotal point where Matter was ground down to the basement of the bones, and humanity given the upward potential to master matter and the atomic table through the development of their higher faculties.

The Father Forces gave Christ and Christ gave to the germinating form of the human being, carried from Saturn - physical germ; Sun - etheric germ; Moon - Astral germ; Earth - Ego seed, the ability to pollinate and remake himself in the model that Christ had before Him. Namely Jesus. We even take the Science of this incubation process of the Christ in a human form, as a three year incubation until down to the very marrow of the bones, Jesus is sweating blood, super heated, Life Spirit full nuclear reaction of Love and containing the fission forces of the super Father origins of matter itself, within a single human form. Now this is Science.

We ask, how deeply did Spirit Consciously penetrate matter? But how, how would WC or PS or Stephen Hawkings be able to get any of this super fusion in the systems of the I AM - Spirit Self - Life Spirit and Spirit Man? Still, Science facts are plodding along and we with our Spiritual Science are plodding along with every new revelation of Science. However the underlying themes of materialism are how can I live forever; Prosperity; and have all Power and Glory at my fingertips? Fairly selfish questions we crave.

The Christ Event is the greatest event in the Science of Matter ever achieved. The levels of Spiritual development that allowed the Astral body to be fully explored, the etheric body to be fully explored, brings to our understanding that which Science and Critics cannot get. That in the actual Physical body is an aspect of Spirit Man; In the actual Etheric body, which the plants have is an aspect of Life Spirit; In the actual Astral body that the animals have and that includes modest astral projection is the germinal Spirit Self. Science has gathered fragments of the mystery of matter but it must smash atoms to bring about Fission. Only Love can assemble and disassemble beings. Unless Ahriman and the Critics try to rip nature of its socket with cloning.

Christ did not have to smash atoms to use the atomic table in a discretionary authority over and Master, as well, down to the very bones of gravity itself, matter. Does that make the human being the greatest lab experiment ever devised? It does. Is it greater than the nuclear bomb? It is because what could be more astonishing than the discretionary use of the full atomic table without destruction? Is such an event a WE, look at the bomb event? No.. It is an I AM a loving component of creation event.



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