Messiah
1
Messiah 2
From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:57 am
Subject: Messiah
Hi Everyone,
My Rabbi believes I am about to become a Jew.
At the very least he says I am a Noahite: one who has no religion
but follows seven basic laws. It seems one of the prerequists
for becoming a Jew is that you renounce Jesus. Looks like that
one is out the window:) Funny how even unto today the point is
that one must renounce Jesus.
I mention that for just a second to speak
what is coming about in my mind regarding the Jews and Jesus.
It seems to me with the following article printed in the LA Times
last week the Hassidic Jews are awaiting the Messiah. And a very
specific one at that. His name is Rabbi Schneerson. Now this
Rabbi has been dead for about 10 years now and they are expecting
him back. This has led to a great conversation about how this
could happen and how it seems that not all of the Jews are in
line with this thought. And even further in that most likely
he will be crucified, not in the same manner as Jesus was said
to have been but in that he will not be accepted by all.
Rabbi states that each generation has its
own Messiah. That the Messhia is not a one time only deal. And
that most likely the Jews send him packing because they specifically
are not ready for the Messhiah. This led me to asking him if
it is possible that Jesus can be reconciled with having been
the Messhiah for his generation. He says no because the Rabbis
didn't except him back then. None of them. Well, I have a funny
feeling that this is a misunderstanding or at the very least
an overstatement of that particular moment back in time.
I find it very interesting that we as Christians
do not have a complete overview of that which Judaism teaches.
We have our Christianized version but without the links to the
Old Testament and the Torah I feel that we will forever be missing
the boat with one another. We must go back to the source in order
to bridge the gap that exists. Within this gap there is a way
for Jesus to have been for his generation what is now being claimed
for Rabbi Schneerson.
I realize that we go further in that we hold
that Christ descending was a one time only event. However the
way in which we hold the Jews to be of such a different mindset
is not the bottom line truth. I feel that we have a connection
being shown through this Rabbi Schneerson and it could be the
very thing that kindles the flame towards reunification for the
people of the book, as the Prophet Muhammed likes to call us.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=16&u=/latimests/judaismsthrivingconcern
If you click on the link and copy it you can
then paste it into your address line and it will go directly
there. A new trick I have found:)
All my best,
d
p.s. there is also a new article that I wish
to share and it is a little controversial for Jews and Christians
alike. But it does seem to link the thought of things being the
way they were supposed to be even unto the death but from a slightly
different point of view that is askewed but I can sense someone
trying to poke a hole into a spiritual thought.
...................................................................................................................................
From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:43 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Messiah
Hi, Dottie,
My Rabbi believes I am about to become
a Jew. At the very least he says I am a Noahite: one who has
no religion but follows seven basic laws. It seems one of the
prerequists for becoming a Jew is that you renounce Jesus. Looks
like that one is out the window:) Funny how even unto today the
point is that one must renounce Jesus.
Doesn't sound kosher to me.
I mention that for just a second to speak
what is coming about in my mind regarding the Jews and Jesus.
It seems to me with the following article printed in the LA Times
last week the Hassidic Jews are awaiting the Messiah. And a very
specific one at that. His name is Rabbi Schneerson. Now this
Rabbi has been dead for about 10 years now and they are expecting
him back. This has led to a great conversation about how this
could happen and how it seems that not all of the Jews are in
line with this thought. And even further in that most likely
he will be crucified, not in the same manner as Jesus was said
to have been but in that he will not be accepted by all.
Rabbi Schneerson is a Brooklyn boy. I remember
him. It is written that he will reincarnate in L.A. when the
Dodgers return to Brooklyn.
Rabbi states that each generation has its
own Messiah. That the Messhia is not a one time only deal. And
that most likely the Jews send him packing because they specifically
are not ready for the Messhiah. This led me to asking him if
it is possible that Jesus can be reconciled with having been
the Messhiah for his generation. He says no because the Rabbis
didn't except him back then. None of them. Well, I have a funny
feeling that this is a misunderstanding or at the very least
an overstatement of that particular moment back in time.
I find it very interesting that we as Christians
do not have a complete overview of that which Judaism teaches.
We have our Christianized version but without the links to the
Old Testament and the Torah I feel that we will forever be missing
the boat with one another. We must go back to the source in order
to bridge the gap that exists. Within this gap there is a way
for Jesus to have been for his generation what is now being claimed
for Rabbi Schneerson.
There is a huge volume of scholarship about
the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, including
Messianic expectations. It's there, one only has to seek.
Frank
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:18 am
Subject: Re: Messiah
Frank:
There is a huge volume of scholarship about
the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, including
Messianic expectations. It's there, one only has to seek.
Hey Frank,
I realize this however the everyday people
attending our Christian churches do not. Nor do the Jews realize,
at this point in time, the connectivety as to why the Christians
hold Jesus as the Messiah. So, there has to be a way not only
to bridge the bad feelings between the two groups on a topical
level there must be one on the deep knowledge 'word' level. For
example: My Rabbi doesn't know who Lucifer is under that name?
Why is this? He asks if maybe the name is Achamoth (sp:( or maybe
if he is the serpent. The point being that we have these similar
stories but no one except a few are interesting in looking into
the deeper connection that exists. We only see that we are separated
by the belief in Jesus the Christ.
In the way the world is today and in a massave
way it is difficult for them to do this deep inner search that
corresponds to both Books. The idea that each generation has
its own Messiah is astounding to me. I mean I get it but the
idea of having a living Messiah for each generation is unbelievable.
When I brought it up to my Rabbi he said that
'well there are two Jesus' anyway. One was born 100 to 150 years
before the time in the New Testament. Pretty interesting when
we think of Jesua Ben Pandira who supposedly lived a short while
before Jesus of Nazareth.
It seems to me the biggest sticking point
for the Jews is that God incarnated in the Flesh. THE God, end
all be all God incarnated in the flesh. They do not believe this
is a possibility. And personally I do not think it can be said
that the 'end all be all God' did incarnate. We are talking about
the highest aspect not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because
man can not know this highest of high aspect. I am sorry I forget
the name of this highest of high understanding.
So, to wrap this up I have to say the Jews
have many misconceptions of what Christians hold to be true.
Well, they seem to understand what the fundamentalist Christians
tend to believe but not those who search for the inner tradition
of Christianity. And I am wondering if maybe this inner tradition
can be called Gnosis? Is that possible? Or is there another name
for the inner tradition other than using the word 'esoteric'
before the word Christianity.
Lots of questions rolling around,
Dottie
p.s. I have a Jewish summer camp at my clubhouse
for the next two weeks. I am serranaded by singing every morning
while sitting in my office. I was a bit surprised, don't know
why, that it is an all boy summer camp. But the good part is
I have my Rabbi every morning answering my questions.
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:35 pm
Subject: Messiah
dottie zold wrote:
THE God, end all be all God incarnated
in the flesh. They do not believe this is a possibility. And
personally I do not think it can be said that the 'end all be
all God' did incarnate. We are talking about the highest aspect
not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because man can not
know this highest of high aspect.
Bradford comments;
Here is a nice little egregorial beastie that
crops up again and again in every single conversation we have
with anyone. I mean it crops up in all people not just this particular
phrasing, but millions upon millions use this fall back, "ad
man can not know" as an excuse. We are in the game we are
players in this world of Beings and we have been given the tools,
updates and upgrades to begin our approach to these mysteries.
Humanity is a model of one stage below the
Angel. We know there is a path towards Angelic development along
a moral curve, that is not based on literal Biblical dogmatism,
but rather on dynamic I AM moral development. Judaism, Islam
and Fundamental Christiianity are loaded with egregorial denials
of the soul's participation in the great blueprints of creation.
For why would Steiner make such an effort to impose the wisdom
needed on a world so unwilling to find their way out of the conundrum?
So the Model of the Jesus Form and psychic
Being that housed the Christ was prepared, yet still we have
the tools needed to approach the tasks and level of understanding
an Elohim. An Elohim who stood above where we stand now, entered
and redesigned the paradigms all the way down to Garden of Eden
and Atlantean gene structures. In other words we can and should
be able to envision a Being Grander and resembles the Future
a picture of human development. Why? Because we understand the
basis of human development in relation to mineral, plant, animal,
human, Angel and on upwards as part of the family of Beings which
we are part of and have always been part of.
The details of working out Sentient soul perception
and development, Intellectual Soul perception and development
and Consciousness Soul perception and development are at hand
for objective observation. If what Dottie indicated were true,
than Steiner failed to present a case for manhood evolving into
the family of Godhood.
Frankly I don't think Steiner failed to present
his case for the divinity of humanity and the ascent of Godhood
along clear psychological and soul scientific foundations. The
denial that this is something we can't imagine is really an egregorial
laziness in our thinking. It is a failure of the habits of soul
and thought... It whisks away the research of Dr. Steiner in
one fell swoop and places anyone who attempts to think it through,
in film, book or commentary as wasting their time.
Now it is upon such frustrating phrasing and
thinking that we enable our own denial. Once again, there is
noone who has taken up the tasks of Spiritual Science who has
not met with this very excuse at every turn. But IMO we cannot
concede such excuses as anything but pockets of failure in the
soul and sometimes even lack of desire to reconstuct a new path
of thinking.
...................................................................................................................................
From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:49 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Messiah
Hi, Dottie,
Frank:
There is a huge volume of scholarship about
the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, including
Messianic expectations. It's there, one only has to seek.
Hey Frank,
I realize this however the everyday people
attending our Christian churches do not. Nor do the Jews realize,
at this point in time, the connectivety as to why the Christians
hold Jesus as the Messiah. So, there has to be a way not only
to bridge the bad feelings between the two groups on a topical
level there must be one on the deep knowledge 'word' level. For
example: My Rabbi doesn't know who Lucifer is under that name?
Why is this? He asks if maybe the name is Achamoth (sp:( or maybe
if he is the serpent.
Acamoth (Hebrew) = Wisdom = Sophia (Greek)
see: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/lesson_34.htm
(snip)
It seems to me the biggest sticking point
for the Jews is that God incarnated in the Flesh. THE God, end
all be all God incarnated in the flesh. They do not believe this
is a possibility. And personally I do not think it can be said
that the 'end all be all God' did incarnate. We are talking about
the highest aspect not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because
man can not know this highest of high aspect. I am sorry I forget
the name of this highest of high understanding.
Well, the Church and most Christians do maintain
the God the Father incarnated in Jesus the Nazorean, which is
an absurdity, considering that that selfsame Jesus continually
refers to "my father".
So, to wrap this up I have to say the Jews
have many misconceptions of what Christians hold to be true.
Well, they seem to understand what the fundamentalist Christians
tend to believe but not those who search for the inner tradition
of Christianity. And I am wondering if maybe this inner tradition
can be called Gnosis? Is that possible? Or is there another name
for the inner tradition other than using the word 'esoteric'
before the word Christianity.
Most of what is known about the Christian
Gnostics is from their critics, as in the link above. Nevertheless
a study of Gnosticism and Anthroposophy can go a long way to
straightening the path. Certainly a non-dogmatic, open-minded
dialogue between knowledgable Jews and Christians on the subject
is long overdue.
p.s. I have a Jewish summer camp at my
clubhouse for the next two weeks. I am serranaded by singing
every morning while sitting in my office. I was a bit surprised,
don't know why, that it is an all boy summer camp. But the good
part is I have my Rabbi every morning answering my questions.
And who, pray, answers the rabbi's questions?
Shalom,
Frank
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Messiah
Dottie wrote:
We are talking about the highest aspect
not even really spoken about in Kabbalah because man can not
know this highest of high aspect.
Bradford:
Here is a nice little egregorial beastie
that crops up
and...
Now it is upon such frustrating phrasing
and thinking that we enable our own denial. Once again, there
is noone who has taken up the tasks of Spiritual Science who
has not met with this very excuse at every turn. But IMO we cannot
concede such excuses as anything but pockets of failure in the
soul and sometimes even lack of desire to reconstuct a new path
of thinking.
Dear Bradford,
Meet the new dottie zold:) no in your face
with pie, no not I :)
Anyhow,
Have you studied the Kabbalah, past reading
and looking at the pretty words:)))) just kidding. Anyhow, Jesus
said the Father and He were one. I understand what the Jews are
speaking about when they say 'one can not know the highest of
the high while still alive. And I believe that to be probable
to this time. That does not mean we will not be on an ongoing
journey to accomplish our goal and to pass the first and second
threshold consciously, but this has nothing to do with 'knowing
God in the Highest' and I mean one that is off the record, in
my opinion.
In the Kabbalah there is a level, and I will
check out the name tonight, in which the 'name' is not even really
ever called upon as we are working towards the highest sphere
in the Tree of Life which ends before the Highest. Well, I can't
imagine I can speak any further on it although I understand it
inside. I will pray to be able to say it in words. Whew. You
know by the way, and I don't think I ever told this to the Ark,
I came upon my journey for Magdalene from praying to know an
answer that Catherine, Bruno and others were discussing regarding
the 11th chapter of John. When I awoke and realized that through
the evening I had come to the answer I was so excited. And when
I shared it on the Ark I was blasted back into real life.
And, by the way, I don't really get nervous.
I DID get nervous when I started to read the Doctor seven or
so years ago as things just started to shake and show themselves
clearly around me. But now, its not the words and thoughts that
bother me rather it is the lowering of the veil that shakes me
to the core. And I imagine the battles on line have strengthened
me within. Isn't that wierd. Including the battle over at the
critics when I was there.
One last rambling thought, sorry, did you
ever think of, well two, but did you ever think of Michaels call
to Lucifer 'Who is like unto Him'? And Lucifers call back is
'I AM'. Now, taking that a step further we, when acknowledging
the various thoughts streaming through on our daily journeys,
come to a point wherein we would ask 'who the hell is speaking
to me' and today the answer came back 'I am' and I recongized
that to be my self. So, in realizing our oneness when we finally
do it becomes an 'I am that I am' thought. Kind of simplistic
but anyhow it kind of works like this.
What do you make of this Magdalene is a limb
of the rising Lazarus:)??
d
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Messiah
Frank:
Acamoth (Hebrew) = Wisdom = Sophia (Greek)
see: http://www.godswordtowomen.org/lesson_34.htm
Hey Frank,
Thanks for the link. I just peeked for a second
but will have more time tonight. Maybe it isn't Acamoth. I can't
imagine the Rabbi is saying that 'Sophia' Chocmah was the Serpent.
Whew. Taht would be totally amazing.
Frank:
And who, pray, answers the rabbi's questions?
The Rabbi answers my little questions about
his study of the Torah wherein I can match it with the Christian
Bible. We haven't gotten to any innerworldy questions as I am
looking for the link that has gone missing between the two religions.
When the Rabbi said that it seems I was becoming
a Jew I stated rather quickly 'I am a Jew, and I am everything
else'. He had a great smile and a shake of the finger at me.
And I said it was not for him or any other Rabbi to say I am
not Jewish that it is for God only. In this thought I am led
to want a better understanding of the word Jew and its specific
inner meaning. Because if one can become a Jew that is not, through
a long and ardous path, that there must be another meaning to
the word that is not spoken of.
Anyhow, happy day,
d
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: Messiah
dottie zold wrote:
Have you studied the Kabbalah, past reading
and looking at the pretty words:)))) just kidding.
Dear Dottie;
Now I know somebody who does know the Kabbalah
fairly well. He could be engaged in a discussion. He has participated
in this list many times. I personally would love to get some
of this Kabbalah structure sorted out..updated and put somewhere
within grasp. I have encountered and have various mapped out
constructs of the Kabbalah but there is certainly one person
who I would like to hear from on this subject. That person is,
our very own Grail Brother, himself, a strong Arthurian..
Brother Ron.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to subscribe to anthroposophy_tomorrow
June/July
2004
The Uncle
Taz "Anthroposophy Tomorrow" Files
Anthroposophy & Anarchism
Anthroposophy & Scientology
Anthroposophical
Morsels
Anthroposophy,
Critics, and Controversy
