More Questions

 

From: at
Date: Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:36 pm
Subject: More Questions

Peter,

I have a few more questions for you:

Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" only ever occurs in the chapter titles of GA 121, and therefore does not go back to Steiner?

Can you point me to a discussion of the Aryan RACE in GA 121 (I can find only one reference to Aryan PEOPLES which seems to me to be more of a linguistic designation).

Can you tell me where I can read more about the wondrous "Nordic spirit" in GA 121? I seem to have missed it.

I have become quite interested in the hierarchy of planetary forces. Could you perhaps explain how I am missing it in GA 121?

What sports are banned in European Waldorf Schools?

How is Anthroposophy a "pseudo-religion" (isn't that like being "a little bit" pregnant?)

What is your source for evaluating the political leanings of some 2 million of Steiner's followers?

Precicely which important elements of the Nazi worldview did Anthroposophy anticipate?

I'm curious about the organization of Waldorf Schools in Europe. In what sense are they a network?

Could you tell me a little more about Steiner's "profound transformation" at age 36?

Why do you feel that Steiner's 7 years in Weimar were not intellectually formative?

Can you describe a typical "anthroposophical ritual" to me? I would love to hear about them!

I have more questions, but if you can anwer these, I would appreciate it.

Daniel Hindes

...................................................................................................................................

From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:03 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Hi Daniel, you asked:

Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" only ever occurs in the chapter titles of GA 121, and therefore does not go back to Steiner?

No, we are not in agreement about that. My copy of GA 121 contains no chapter titles whatsoever. In the English translation, "root races" occurs both in the titles and in the body of the text. There is a helpful note by the Gesamtausgabe editors on p. 572 of GA 266a, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, about Steiner's racial terminology; the editors equate "Wurzelrasse" and "Hauptrasse" in Steiner's usage. So did Steiner, of course.

Can you point me to a discussion of the Aryan RACE in GA 121 (I can find only one reference to Aryan PEOPLES which seems to me to be more of a linguistic designation).

Peoples and languages are different things. Mixing up the two was a primary root of the Aryan myth. In any case, this is how the passage reads in the English edition of Steiner's book: "Here is the seat of those forces which determine the particular racial character of those races belonging to the Jupiter humanity. This apples more or less to the Aryans, to the peoples of Asia Minor and Europe whom we regard as members of the Caucasian race." (p. 106) By my reading, Steiner very clearly includes the Aryans among "those races belonging to the Jupiter humanity."

Can you tell me where I can read more about the wondrous "Nordic spirit" in GA 121? I seem to have missed it.

The latter half of the book is about the spiritual mysteries of Nordic man. There you can read all about "the Germanic and Nordic Folk Spirit" (e.g. p. 162 or p. 168), the "Folk Spirit of the North" (p. 172), and "the Folk Spirit who rules over the Northern lands." (p. 183)

I have become quite interested in the hierarchy of planetary forces. Could you perhaps explain how I am missing it in GA 121?

I don't know how you are missing it. Maybe you and I disagree about what hierarchy is. I think his description of the "racial character" of black, yellow, brown, and red people in relation to Europeans is obviously hierarchical. In the same volume I recommended above, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, Steiner designates Jupiter as "higher" (pp. 302-307) and says that the goal of esoteric contemplation is "to develop oneself into Jupiter consciousness" ("sich in das Jupiterbewusstsein hineinzuentwickeln", p. 307).

What sports are banned in European Waldorf Schools?

Sports where a ball is kicked.

How is Anthroposophy a "pseudo-religion" (isn't that like being "a little bit" pregnant?)

No, I think that many belief systems have a pseudo-religious character. I disagree that something must either be religious or not be religious.

What is your source for evaluating the political leanings of some 2 million of Steiner's followers?

Where do you think I do this? I don't even agree that there are 2 million Steiner followers in the world.

Precicely which important elements of the Nazi worldview did Anthroposophy anticipate?

The Aryan myth, the Atlantis myth, the notion of small racial groups advancing while the rest decline, the cultural mission of the Germans, the linking of freedom and idealism to spiritual regeneration as a path toward transcendence, and so forth.

I'm curious about the organization of Waldorf Schools in Europe. In what sense are they a network?

There are lots of networks of Waldorf schools in Europe. Detlef works for one of them.

Could you tell me a little more about Steiner's "profound transformation" at age 36?

Do you mean at the turn of the century?

Why do you feel that Steiner's 7 years in Weimar were not intellectually formative?

Because he largely recapitulated the main themes of German Idealism during that period, in my view, in contrast to the Vienna and Berlin periods.

Can you describe a typical "anthroposophical ritual" to me? I would love to hear about them!

I don't know where you live, but if there's a biodynamic farm somewhere in the vicinity, you might ask to watch while they make one of the preparations. It's pretty boring, if you ask me; lots of stirring and changing direction and so forth.

Peter

...................................................................................................................................

From: at
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:58 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Hi Daniel, you asked:

Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" only ever occurs in the chapter titles of GA 121, and therefore does not go back to Steiner?

Peter Staudenmaier:

No, we are not in agreement about that. My copy of GA 121 contains no chapter titles whatsoever. In the English translation, "root races" occurs both in the titles and in the body of the text. There is a helpful note by the Gesamtausgabe editors on p. 572 of GA 266a, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, about Steiner's racial terminology; the editors equate "Wurzelrasse" and "Hauptrasse" in Steiner's usage. So did Steiner, of course.

Daniel:

Ok. Let's try this again. Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" (specifically as the German "Wurzelrassen") does not occure in the German text of GA 121?" (Yes, "Hauptrassen" occurs twice, but we can look at that later).

Daniel wrote:

Can you tell me where I can read more about the wondrous "Nordic spirit" in GA 121? I seem to have missed it.

Peter Staudenmaier:

The latter half of the book is about the spiritual mysteries of Nordic man. There you can read all about "the Germanic and Nordic Folk Spirit" (e.g. p. 162 or p. 168), the "Folk Spirit of the North" (p. 172), and "the Folk Spirit who rules over the Northern lands." (p. 183)

Daniel:

Somehow, when I read the phrase "nordic spirit" I think of something like "esprit de corps" or "that's a nice horse, it really has spirit" or in this case, "Those are great men, they possess nordic spirit." If the Spirit is supposed to be a single being, shouldn't it be capitalized or something, do differentiate it from the generic reading?

Daniel wrote:

I have become quite interested in the hierarchy of planetary forces. Could you perhaps explain how I am missing it in GA 121?

Peter Staudenmaier:

I don't know how you are missing it. Maybe you and I disagree about what hierarchy is. I think his description of the "racial character" of black, yellow, brown, and red people in relation to Europeans is obviously hierarchical. In the same volume I recommended above, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, Steiner designates Jupiter as "higher" (pp. 302-307) and says that the goal of esoteric contemplation is "to develop oneself into Jupiter consciousness" ("sich in das Jupiterbewusstsein hineinzuentwickeln", p. 307).

Daniel:

So a five page gap between the word "high" and "Jupiter consciousness" is supposed to establish that Jupiter is above other planets (even though the other planets appear not to be mentioned in this context). And this establishes a racial hierarchy? I'd be curious to hear more about this. What are the designations (adjectives used to describe) the other planetary consciousnesses? And how does a planetary consciousness relate to planetary physical formative forces? I'd very much like to know.

Daniel wrote:

What sports are banned in European Waldorf Schools?

Peter Staudenmaier:

Sports where a ball is kicked.

Daniel:

Ok. So is the ban in place in all European Waldorf Schools as the phrase implies? If I find one counter-example does that invalidate the statement?

What is the mechanism by which this ban is communicated and enforced? Are there sanctions for breaking it?

Daniel wrote:

What is your source for evaluating the political leanings of some 2 million of Steiner's followers?

Peter Staudenmaier:

Where do you think I do this? I don't even agree that there are 2 million Steiner followers in the world.

Daniel:

Ok. Perhaps you could define how you determine someone to be a follower of Steiner for the purposes of determining their political leanings, and perhaps say a few things about how many you think there are overall and in the various categories.

Daniel wrote:

I'm curious about the organization of Waldorf Schools in Europe. In what sense are they a network?

Peter Staudenmaier:

There are lots of networks of Waldorf schools in Europe. Detlef works for one of them.

Daniel:

Ok. Could you be more specific? How are they organized?

Daniel wrote:

Why do you feel that Steiner's 7 years in Weimar were not intellectually formative?

Peter Staudenmaier:

Because he largely recapitulated the main themes of German Idealism during that period, in my view, in contrast to the Vienna and Berlin periods.

Daniel:

Just to be clear then, the introductions to Goethe's scientific writings, Steiner's PhD thesis and Epistomology, and the Philosphy of Freedom are irrelevant to Steiner's "theosophical-anthroposophical" period? Or do you mean that he didn't accomplish anything new with these.

Also, could you tell me a little about Steiner's first time through German Idealism (a recapitulation to me implies that he was going back to something he had previously worked on.)

Daniel wrote:

Can you describe a typical "anthroposophical ritual" to me? I would love to hear about them!

Peter Staudenmaier:

I don't know where you live, but if there's a biodynamic farm somewhere in the vicinity, you might ask to watch while they make one of the preparations. It's pretty boring, if you ask me; lots of stirring and changing direction and so forth.

Daniel:

Oh, yea, I remember doing that last year (my wife and I were curious where our vegetables came from). That is a ritual? It is a bunch of people stirring water in buckets. I don't recall anything ceremonious about it.

Are there any other rituals you know of?

Daniel Hindes

continued in another thread

See also "More Questions (again)"

...................................................................................................................................

From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:23 pm
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

[Daniel:]

German text of GA 121?" (Yes, "Hauptrassen" occurs twice, but we can look at that later).
------------------------------------------

Daniel wrote:

I have become quite interested in the hierarchy of planetary forces. Could you perhaps explain how I am missing it in GA 121?

Peter Staudenmaier:

I don't know how you are missing it. Maybe you and I disagree about what hierarchy is. I think his description of the "racial character" of black, yellow, brown, and red people in relation to Europeans is obviously hierarchical. In the same volume I recommended above, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, Steiner designates Jupiter as "higher" (pp. 302-307) and says that the goal of esoteric contemplation is "to develop oneself into Jupiter consciousness" ("sich in das Jupiterbewusstsein hineinzuentwickeln", p. 307).

Hi Daniel,

I'm not sure since I have not with me the Italian translation but I believe that here "Jupiter consciousness" is refered to "Jupiter" as the next state of evolutive development of the Earth as described for instance. in "Occult Science" (saturn,soon,Moon,Earth,Jupiter,Venus,Vulcanus) and has very little to do with the " Jiupiter planetary forces" described in "Folk Souls" lectures.

A.

...................................................................................................................................

From: Detlef Hardorp
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:35 pm
Subject: Only words and no concepts? was: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Dear friends,

I am beginning to get the impression that I have been overestimating the intellectual capacities of this Staudenmaier chap. He just wrote:

I think his description of the "racial character" of black, yellow, brown, and red people in relation to Europeans is obviously hierarchical. In the same volume I recommended above, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, Steiner designates Jupiter as "higher" (pp. 302-307) and says that the goal of esoteric contemplation is "to develop oneself into Jupiter consciousness" ("sich in das Jupiterbewusstsein hineinzuentwickeln", p. 307).

Maybe he needs to read more of Blavatsky. Now I haven't checked this recently myself and wouldn't vouch for it as far as Blavatksy goes, having today discovered some discrepancies between Blavatsky and Steiner that I had not remembered. But as far as I know, the next round of evolution beyond the earth round (with its seven root races) is the Jupiter round, to be followed by Vulcan, both according to Blavatsky and according to Steiner. In the sense of evolution, of course Jupiter is higher in the sense that it occurs after earth evolution - and Steiner was certainly hoping that humanity works on itself in such a way that Jupiter doesn't turn into a disaster. It comes about, after all, out of the imagination human beings. Thus it is so important that imagination develops in a healthy way - the future of the world literally depends on it!

BUT anyone who has read Steiner somewhat more than superficially will surely realise that the future Jupiter round of evolution should not to be confused with the influence of the planets (including Jupiter) as they are described in the "Mission..." book! It's pretty evident simply by the fact that in the "Mission ..." book, Steiner is talking about how the classical race distinctions came about IN THE REMOTE PAST (Atlantean times) through an influence of planets. These are quite different issues! But there is a common word.

I would regards it as a severe degeneration of intelligence if someone is not able to think beyond mere words, with no sense whatsoever for concepts.

Detlef Hardorp

...................................................................................................................................

From: Peter Staudenmaier
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Hi Daniel, you wrote:

Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" (specifically as the German "Wurzelrassen") does not occure in the German text of GA 121?

Yes, the word Wurzelrasse does not appear in the copy of GA 121 that I have. This was never in dispute, by the way.

Just to be clear then, the introductions to Goethe's scientific writings, Steiner's PhD thesis and Epistomology, and the Philosphy of Freedom are irrelevant to Steiner's "theosophical-anthroposophical" period?

I suppose we could argue about what irrelevant means, but in my opinion, yes, this is pretty accurate. They were written before his turn to theosophy and their content and style are radically different from his post-1900 work.

Or do you mean that he didn't accomplish anything new with these.

I think that's largely true as well.

Peter

...................................................................................................................................

From: holderlin66
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:04 pm
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Detlef Hardorp wrote:

But as far as I know, the next round of evolution beyond the earth round (with its seven root races) is the Jupiter round, to be followed by Vulcan, both according to Blavatsky and according to Steiner. In the sense of evolution, of course Jupiter is higher in the sense that it occurs after earth evolution - and Steiner was certainly hoping that humanity works on itself in such a way that Jupiter doesn't turn into a disaster. It comes about, after all, out of the imagination human beings.

Bradford comments;

Ah dear friends, no future Mars evolution, and here I mean that against Peter there was no hierarchical distribution. The Planets, and correct me if I'm wrong Peter, the Planets, Equal Opportunity employment for all, configured various multi facetted capcities way back in the Atlantean Times as their gifts.

This, to my understanding, means that the Rainbow Contract, the Seven Planetary forces.. such as native American Saturn Red Man definition, does not imply a future condition, nor does the Jupiter human capacities, imply a future human condition. Except by extension of Thinking and the failed Germanic I AM potential.

It rather implies that we in the Michael School fail to look into the Newtonian and Noahtic contract with the wide spectrum of just what the 7 features and capacities mean over the entire spectrum. We fail somehow to see the implication of how God made this contract as long as the Rainbow would last with humanity.

But we are starting to break down this Rainbow. Not only in Race and in individual developoments, but also in electromagnetic color and mixing gene codes that never before existed. There is of course a Days of the Week unfolding of the model of those future conditons and these round up something like this.. Starting With Saturn or Saturday, which is really rather Hebrew, as a kind of holy day.

Saturn=Saturday
Sun=Sunday
Moon=Monday

[now these entail the Saturn-Sun-Moon Evolutionary periods.]

Mars=Tuesday
Mercury=Wednesday

[Those complete the descending Mars forces of the I AM and the upward turning, Healing and Mercury forces - ALL OF WHICH STAND FOR CURRENT EARTH EVOLUTION]

Jupiter=Thursday
Friday=Venus

But as to the Rainbow Conctract of Noah...not only is it Newton and the spectrum but the various planetary contributions to the foundation of human capacity are also not hierarchical, but like the Rainbow give a wide spread of experiences which all I AM's participate in. This of course does not mean that let us say a RedMan, i.e. Native American is always depressed and melancholic under the weight of Saturn. Everyone does, flowers and awakens in whatever place and time and at whatever phase of sentient soul, intellectual soul and consciousness soul. These various Rainbow forces act as the base, the flower pot and soil out of which the soul grows higher capacities.

However in examing the various capaciites and groupings over the Earth, as well as the misunderstood, (and how can we help you understand, from the Michael School, just what your missing?) idea that anyone of these dominate the spectrum was never implied by Steiner. They don't dominate and we have exactly proof. Martin Luther King Jr or Gandhi, depend on what the Individual brings into the conditions. Everyone moves through these experiences and ripen themselves. Note the Native American Black Elk or Chief Seattle speak about Reincarnation, so people flower, ripen and arise in various phases of their experience on Earth. The various conditions act merely as the pot and soil out of which the I AM flowers.

Bradford

...................................................................................................................................

From: at
Date: Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:51 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Peter,

I seem to have missed your response to this. Perhaps you could repost it.

Daniel Hindes

Hi Daniel, you asked:

Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" only ever occurs in the chapter titles of GA 121, and therefore does not go back to Steiner?

Peter Staudenmaier:

No, we are not in agreement about that. My copy of GA 121 contains no chapter titles whatsoever. In the English translation, "root races" occurs both in the titles and in the body of the text. There is a helpful note by the Gesamtausgabe editors on p. 572 of GA 266a, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, about Steiner's racial terminology; the editors equate "Wurzelrasse" and "Hauptrasse" in Steiner's usage. So did Steiner, of course.

Daniel:

Ok. Let's try this again. Are we agreed that the phrase "Root Race" (specifically as the German "Wurzelrassen") does not occure in the German text of GA 121?" (Yes, "Hauptrassen" occurs twice, but we can look at that later).

Daniel wrote:

Can you tell me where I can read more about the wondrous "Nordic spirit" in GA 121? I seem to have missed it.

Peter Staudenmaier:

The latter half of the book is about the spiritual mysteries of Nordic man. There you can read all about "the Germanic and Nordic Folk Spirit" (e.g. p. 162 or p. 168), the "Folk Spirit of the North" (p. 172), and "the Folk Spirit who rules over the Northern lands." (p. 183)

Daniel:

Somehow, when I read the phrase "nordic spirit" I think of something like "esprit de corps" or "that's a nice horse, it really has spirit" or in this case, "Those are great men, they possess nordic spirit." If the Spirit is supposed to be a single being, shouldn't it be capitalized or something, do differentiate it from the generic reading?

Daniel wrote:

I have become quite interested in the hierarchy of planetary forces. Could you perhaps explain how I am missing it in GA 121?

Peter Staudenmaier:

I don't know how you are missing it. Maybe you and I disagree about what hierarchy is. I think his description of the "racial character" of black, yellow, brown, and red people in relation to Europeans is obviously hierarchical. In the same volume I recommended above, Aus den Inhalten der esoterischen Stunden, Steiner designates Jupiter as "higher" (pp. 302-307) and says that the goal of esoteric contemplation is "to develop oneself into Jupiter consciousness" ("sich in das Jupiterbewusstsein hineinzuentwickeln", p. 307).

Daniel:

So a five page gap between the word "high" and "Jupiter consciousness" is supposed to establish that Jupiter is above other planets (even though the other planets appear not to be mentioned in this context). And this establishes a racial hierarchy? I'd be curious to hear more about this. What are the designations (adjectives used to describe) the other planetary consciousnesses? And how does a planetary consciousness relate to planetary physical formative forces? I'd very much like to know.

Daniel wrote:

What sports are banned in European Waldorf Schools?

Peter Staudenmaier:

Sports where a ball is kicked.

Daniel:

Ok. So is the ban in place in all European Waldorf Schools as the phrase implies? If I find one counter-example does that invalidate the statement?

What is the mechanism by which this ban is communicated and enforced? Are there sanctions for breaking it?

Daniel wrote:

What is your source for evaluating the political leanings of some 2 million of Steiner's followers?

Peter Staudenmaier:

Where do you think I do this? I don't even agree that there are 2 million Steiner followers in the world.

Daniel:

Ok. Perhaps you could define how you determine someone to be a follower of Steiner for the purposes of determining their political leanings, and perhaps say a few things about how many you think there are overall and in the various categories.

Daniel wrote:

I'm curious about the organization of Waldorf Schools in Europe. In what sense are they a network?

Peter Staudenmaier:

There are lots of networks of Waldorf schools in Europe. Detlef works for one of them.

Daniel:

Ok. Could you be more specific? How are they organized?

Daniel wrote:

Why do you feel that Steiner's 7 years in Weimar were not intellectually formative?

Peter Staudenmaier:

Because he largely recapitulated the main themes of German Idealism during that period, in my view, in contrast to the Vienna and Berlin periods.

Daniel:

Just to be clear then, the introductions to Goethe's scientific writings, Steiner's PhD thesis and Epistomology, and the Philosphy of Freedom are irrelevant to Steiner's "theosophical-anthroposophical" period? Or do you mean that he didn't accomplish anything new with these.

Also, could you tell me a little about Steiner's first time through German Idealism (a recapitulation to me implies that he was going back to something he had previously worked on.)

Daniel wrote:

Can you describe a typical "anthroposophical ritual" to me? I would love to hear about them!

Peter Staudenmaier:

I don't know where you live, but if there's a biodynamic farm somewhere in the vicinity, you might ask to watch while they make one of the preparations. It's pretty boring, if you ask me; lots of stirring and changing direction and so forth.

Daniel:

Oh, yea, I remember doing that last year (my wife and I were curious where our vegetables came from). That is a ritual? It is a bunch of people stirring water in buckets. I don't recall anything ceremonious about it.

Are there any other rituals you know of?

Daniel Hindes

...................................................................................................................................

From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:48 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] More Questions

Peter Staudenmaier:

Daniel wrote:

Just to be clear then, the introductions to Goethe's scientific writings, Steiner's PhD thesis and Epistomology, and the Philosphy of Freedom are irrelevant to Steiner's "theosophical-anthroposophical" period? Or do you mean that he didn't accomplish anything new with these.

My comment:

Hi Daniel,

to be kindest. this is a further evidence that Mr Lie did really not understand anything at all about Steiner's work. He is demonstrating over and over to have no right at all to "criticize" anything of Steiner's insights.

A.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kicking a ball


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