Novalis
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:04 am
Subject: Novalis
Hi Everyone,
In reading the book I just aquired from the
Steiner bookstore I found such beautiful poems by Novalis. I
also found some thoughts that I find to be the way it seems we
also come to the Sophia path that I wanted to share.
How is Maria Seen? page23
The Sense for Heaven
Kant's critical theory of
knowledge was an inspiration and a challenge to Novalis. In the
all important year 1797, however, Novalis' epistomological view
showed developements which put it in conscious contradiction
too key elements of Kant's view. These differences stem mainly
from Novalis' growing belief in, and experience with, the sense
for the invisible world within us; "Concept of 'sense organ.
According to Kant, pure mathematics and pure science relate themselves
to the forms of the outer sense perceptible. What science, then,
relates itself to the forms of the inner sense pereceptible?
Is there in addition, cognition 'beyond the sense perceptible'?
Is there still another way open for going out of oneself and
for reaching other beings, or for being affected by them? (II,390)
The many quotes in this paper about the sense for the invisible
show that Novalis' answer is 'yes'. And since Novalis did 'reach
other beings', this 'cognition beyond the sense perceptible'
can not be merely subjective.
Kant believed in an objective
real world outside himself, the world of the 'things in themselves';
but he believed them to be inaccessible to human knowledge. Hans-Joachim
Maehl quotes Kant (II,336), that his theoretical knowledge of
reason ..."namely, approaches only 'appearance', and, on
the other hand, leaves the thing in itself alone as something
real in itself, it is true, but 'unknown to us." The following
lines from Novalis show his belief that moral sense can indeed
penetrate into the world of being, into the world of things-in-themselves:
"God only becomes perceptible to us through the moral sense
organ; the moral sense is the sense for Being, without 'outer
stimulus...,the sense for the thing in itself, the true divination
sense, "divining" in the sense of perceiving, something
without an outer cause or contact." This issue is very important,
because upon it hinges the nature and accessibility of Maria:
does she have only a subjective reality, or is she, in spite
of her being a part of ourselves ("the heavenly mother dwells
in each of us" (I,312), real and knowable in her own right?
For Novalis, Maria is a higher being connected to his own soul;
she has an uplifting power, a power to transform his soul from
above; she is an eternal feminine principle who leads him onward.
No mirror image of his self could have this power.
The inner walls that Kant
built around us could not hold Novalis. The following words of
Oskar Walzel do not apply to Novalis. The Romantics "desire
to grasp the ultimate ground out of which the world has grown,
at first runs into the solid walls with which Kant had drawn
the limits of man's ability to know."
D: It's funny reading things that feel like
home to me. Maybe it is the connection from heart to heart that
have found Sophia that allows one to feel a brotherly connection
to such a one as Novalis. And what a connection to Dr. Steiner
is what I kept getting throughout this whole piece. One easily
sees the direct correlation to the thinking of Goethe, Novalis
and Dr. Steiner.
What is interesting is that this leads me
to thoughts on the critics list about Waldorf schools. In order
to share with the world their bad experiences of a school that
Dr. Steiner founded a hundred years ago they go to demonizing
the man himself. They try to show this is a cult for no other
reason than it adds to their case in court. It's one thing to
make clear the idea that this Waldorf has religious overtones
and that is all good but to then go and create malicious stories
about Dr. Steiner shows how weak their case must be. If it is
about church and state then make it so but one doesn't need to
create lies about cult like activities to scare people. Your
argument should stand without that. If it doesn't than you must
not have a good case.
Even in that we agree there were and are things
that need to change in different schools and so forth does not
give them a pass for the libelous way they have handled themselves
in regards to this great thinker of mankind. It really gets down
to once again being driven by Dan Dugan and his personal world
view of a humanist. If it did not then he and they wouldn't have
need to try and drag Dr. Steiners name down to the pits of hell.
Seperation of church and state does not give them free reign
to malign another mans work.
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:11 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Thank you for your post about Novalis, Dottie.
I seem to recall him being a reincarnation of John the Evangelist
(Lazarus-John) or Leonardo da Vinci or both.
Tarjei
At 19:04 14.03.2004, Dottie wrote:
Hi Everyone,
In reading the book I just aquired from
the Steiner bookstore I found such beautiful poems by Novalis.
I also found some thoughts that I find to be the way it seems
we also come to the Sophia path that I wanted to share.
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:19 am
Subject: Re: Novalis
Tarjei:
Thank you for your post about Novalis,
Dottie. I seem to recall him being a reincarnation of John the
Evangelist (Lazarus-John) or Leonardo da Vinci or both.
Hey Tarjei,
What just came to mind when I went back to
writing was the idea of an Abraham Lincoln connection to Novalis.
I am not normally one to make such remarks as to biographies
other than to 'react' to them but suddenly I just got a full
picture of sorts within my heart. Who knows huh?
Good Sunday,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:33 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Hi Tarjej, Hi dottie,
Steiner said. in various diffrente lectures
including the Gospel of St Matthew, that he was John the Baptist
and, in XV-XVI cent. the painter Raffaello Sanzio.
(Leonardo....it's a very different matter!)
A.
----- Original Message -----
From: Tarjei Straume
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Thank you for your post about Novalis,
Dottie. I seem to recall him being a reincarnation of John the
Evangelist (Lazarus-John) or Leonardo da Vinci or both.
Tarjei
At 19:04 14.03.2004, Dottie wrote:
Hi Everyone,
In reading the book I just aquired from
the Steiner bookstore I found such beautiful poems by Novalis.
I also found some thoughts that I find to be the way it seems
we also come to the Sophia path that I wanted to share.
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:23 am
Subject: Re: Novalis
The inner walls that Kant
built around us could not hold Novalis. The following words of
Oskar Walzel do not apply to Novalis. The Romantics "desire
to grasp the ultimate ground out of which the world has grown,
at first runs into the solid walls with which Kant had drawn
the limits of man's ability to know."
I didn't finish the paragraph and I thought
it relevant so here it is:
"...They experience that
their hot longing for the eternal and the endless must remain
longing. Out of this disappointment grows the teaching of Romantic
irony."
Also to Danny, I had no idea that this Miss
Sophie von Khun was the fiance to a young Msg. Novalis. Well,
whadaya say? Whew.
Love,
d
p.s. the book by the way is written by Mr.
William Lindeman and it is called The Sense for Heaven.
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:50 am
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 7:33 PM
Subject: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Hi Tarjej, Hi dottie,
Steiner said. in various diffrente lectures
including the Gospel of St Matthew, that he was John the Baptist
and, in XV-XVI cent. the painter Raffaello Sanzio.
(Leonardo....it's a very different matter!)
A.
Andrea adds,
Hi folks
I'm no "mistery writer".
So, I've just finished reading an article
about the "Last Supper" in an Italian anthro-magazine
in which there is claimed that, following mainly some Rittelmayer's
statements , that there is a development of the same Individuality
inside the Personalities of Judas, St Augustin, and ...Leonardo.
The composition itself of the "Last Supper" should
be a further evidence of that claim that. in itself, is based
mainly on RS's communications to FR. I'm sorry that I cannot
tell more about it: I have not the due time to translate the
article (toddlers are running!)
A.
...................................................................................................................................
From: at
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:38 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Raphael, not Leonardo. It's in the book Dottie
is reading (Eternal Individuality by Prokofieff).
Daniel
----- Original Message -----
From: Tarjei Straume
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Thank you for your post about Novalis,
Dottie. I seem to recall him being a reincarnation of John the
Evangelist (Lazarus-John) or Leonardo da Vinci or both.
Tarjei
At 19:04 14.03.2004, Dottie wrote:
Hi Everyone,
In reading the book I just aquired from
the Steiner bookstore I found such beautiful poems by Novalis.
I also found some thoughts that I find to be the way it seems
we also come to the Sophia path that I wanted to share.
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:40 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
I had forgotten the details here and got Raphael
mixed up with Leonardo, and John the Baptist with John the Evangelist,
so I did some checking and found a little quote:
"Occult investigation
finds that in Elijah, in John the Baptist, in Raphael, in Novalis,
the same Individuality lived and worked. In Raphael there is
a new resurrection of the work of John the Baptist, and it may
indeed be said: Raphael himself is able to ensure that his work
will not perish when his paintings are no longer to be seen on
the walls, just as he was able to prevent other achievements
from passing away. Just as he provided for the revival, in a
new form, of what it had once been his mission to proclaim, so
he will always provide, in incarnations yet to come. Thus does
the Individuality bear through eternity what has once been accomplished."
- Earthly and Cosmic Man, The Idea of Reincarnation
and its Introduction Into Western Culture, The Geralding of Christianity,
Berlin, GA 133
http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/Places/Berlin/19120502p01.html
Tarjei
At 19:33 14.03.2004, Andrea wrote:
Hi Tarjej, Hi dottie,
Steiner said. in various diffrente lectures
including the Gospel of St Matthew, that he was John the Baptist
and, in XV-XVI cent. the painter Raffaello Sanzio.
(Leonardo....it's a very different matter!)
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:03 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Andrea:
(Leonardo....it's a very different matter!)
Hi Andrea,
Meaning what exactly? :)
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:04 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Daniel:
Raphael, not Leonardo. It's in the book
Dottie is reading (Eternal Individuality by Prokofieff).
Hey Daniel,
I am not reading this particular book. Do
you reccomend it for one looking towards a greater Sophia understanding?
Good Sunday,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:22 am
Subject: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
----- Original >
To: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Andrea:
(Leonardo....it's a very different matter!)
Hi Andrea,
Meaning what exactly? :)
Dottie
Hi Dottie!
I'm no "mistery writer".
So, I've just finished reading an article
about the "Last Supper" in an Italian anthro-magazine
in which there is claimed that, following mainly some Rittelmayer's
statements , that there is a development of the same Individuality
inside the Personalities of Judas, St Augustin, and ...Leonardo.
The composition itself of the "Last Supper" should
be a further evidence of that claim that. in itself, is based
mainly on RS's communications to FR. I'm sorry that I cannot
tell more about it: I have not the due time to translate the
article (toddlers are running!)
A.
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:11 am
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Andrea:
I'm no "mistery writer".
So, I've just finished reading an article
about the "Last Supper" in an Italian anthro-magazine
in which there is claimed that, following mainly some Rittelmayer's
statements , that there is a development of the same Individuality
inside the Personalities of Judas, St Augustin, and ...Leonardo.
The composition itself of the "Last Supper" should
be a further evidence of that claim that. in itself, is based
mainly on RS's communications to FR. I'm sorry that I cannot
tell more about it: I have not the due time to translate the
article (toddlers are running!)
A.
Oh my goodeness! Are you possibly saying something
about Da Vinci as in Dr. Steiners personality? If you are then
it really is amazing how we are all really tied in together.
The workings of the spirit never ever cease to amaze me.
How do we all come to a thing? How is it that
our lives really bear out the fruit from the spiritual worlds
and slowly make themselves appear before our very minds today?
Isn't it just absolutely stunning how we are all connected and
how we all find ourselves in the very place we are meant to be:
Steiner students? Unbelievable!
Oh what a beautiful Sunday. Today is the day
of the man who gave birth to me. And just as when it is my mothers
birth day, I find myself surrounded by lots of love and beauty,
so I am today with my wonderful Fathers birth day. I so love
him. Happy happy happy is the day a child is born.
Good Good Sunday,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:15 am
Subject: Re: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Andrea:
The composition itself of the "Last
Supper" should be a further evidence of that claim that.
in itself, is based mainly on RS's communications to FR. I'm
sorry that I cannot tell more about it: I have not the due time
to translate the article (toddlers are running!)
Okay, I get you are no mystery writer, so
where does Dr. Steiner speak on this Da Vinci gentleman?
And yesterday I had a Mona Lisa smile moment.
What he captured was a moment when someone has a sublime understanding.
The smile, the upturn in the lips without a full smile is exactly
the same as in the picture. Next time you have one of these moments
notice how your face feels around the lips and the eyes. You
shall see/feel what it is; the balance of the mystery having
been noticed by you in that particular mille second.
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: VALENTINA BRUNETTI
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:34 am
Subject: R: R: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
There is a lecture given in Berlin on Feb
1913 13 (GA 62) . I got the Italian translation , it is entitled
as "Leonardo's Spiritual Greatness at the Beginning of modern
Ages"
Don't know if there is some English transl. on the web.
A.
Andrea:
The composition itself of the "Last
Supper" should be a further evidence of that claim that.
in itself, is based mainly on RS's communications to FR. I'm
sorry that I cannot tell more about it: I have not the due time
to translate the article (toddlers are running!)
Okay, I get you are no mystery writer,
so where does Dr. Steiner speak on this Da Vinci gentleman?
And yesterday I had a Mona Lisa smile moment.
What he captured was a moment when someone has a sublime understanding.
The smile, the upturn in the lips without a full smile is exactly
the same as in the picture. Next time you have one of these moments
notice how your face feels around the lips and the eyes. You
shall see/feel what it is; the balance of the mystery having
been noticed by you in that particular mille second.
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: danifyou
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:31 am
Subject: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
----Message original -----
De : dottie zold
The inner walls that Kant
built around us could not hold Novalis. The following words of
Oskar Walzel do not apply to Novalis. The Romantics "desire
to grasp the ultimate ground out of which the world has grown,
at first runs into the solid walls with which Kant had drawn
the limits of man's ability to know."
I didn't finish the paragraph and I thought
it relevant so here it is:
"...They experience
that their hot longing for the eternal and the endless must remain
longing. Out of this disappointment grows the teaching of Romantic
irony."
Also to Danny, I had no idea that this
Miss Sophie von Khun was the fiance to a young Msg. Novalis.
Well, whadaya say? Whew.
Hi Dottie ;)
I say: lo! - Long the Longing
Makes seem everything Face
Now a Mean(-)time --> towards the Spring
Spiritual Eternal Purely-'Sophic-Ourselves'!
Sprout Seeds cast many they shall reap
Soon - take hold of the Etheric;
Out of White Magic('Love Ideal')
Acquire-we Star(s) Velocity-Stir
Vehicule-'Hover' - Reach into Air
Like Cupid for all that
Has been unchartered
- Up to now - only little done -
Yet - also much "Rehearsals"!...
But the Increase does come;
All Good Willed Men shall be Quickened
And be able to use Freya's Dress-'Hawk'!
And for you Dottie a Special:
Friend with the 2 Jesus Boys
In Olga's Gallery Collection!
http://www.abcgallery.com/R/raphael/raphael90.html
Love,
d
p.s. the book by the way is written by
Mr. William Lindeman and it is called The Sense for Heaven.
Interesting; I'll take a look then!
Good Philosophical Stuff - Thanks!
Short - as I must go now,
Dan
...................................................................................................................................
From: at
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:50 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
I've done no more than skim a few passages
on occasion. But it can do no harm! You are by now familiar with
Prokofieff's writing, and the subject is definitely related.
Daniel
----- Original Message -----
From: dottie zold
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Daniel:
Raphael, not Leonardo. It's in the book
Dottie is reading (Eternal Individuality by Prokofieff).
Hey Daniel,
I am not reading this particular book.
Do you reccomend it for one looking towards a greater Sophia
understanding?
Good Sunday,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: Detlef Hardorp
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Tarjei wrote:
Thank you for your post about Novalis,
Dottie. I seem to recall him being a reincarnation of ...
Dear Tarjei,
you have already been corrected concerning the personalities
involved. May I chide you for something else? That is the basic
misunderstanding behind a statement like the above. Because neither
Raphael nor Leornado nor anyone else reincarnated. They died.
Personalities don't reincarnate! They have only one life to live.
Watch how Steiner phrases it:
"Occult investigation
finds that in Elijah, in John the Baptist, in Raphael, in Novalis,
the same Individuality lived and worked. "
The Individuality is not to be identified
with the personality!
You may think I'm nitpicking. But for me this is an important
spiritual distinction. You are certainly not the only one to
disregard it through at least sloppy phrasing. But it always
makes me cringe. Beyond the fact that I don't think it appropriate
to talk about things like this in the same manner as we talk
about changing our brand of toothpaste. I would welcome a little
more respect towards these issues, which, after all, Steiner
only spoke of very late in his life - and that was surely not
because he lacked the knowledge to do so previously.
Detlef Hardorp
...................................................................................................................................
From: Detlef Hardorp
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:00 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Post Script: I wrote
I would welcome a little more respect towards these issues,
which, after all, Steiner only spoke of very late in his life
- and that was surely not because he lacked the knowledge to
do so previously.
Of course the Novalis example is the exception that "proves"
the rule - it is one of the few reincarnation cycles he spoke
about explicitly already during the time of the mystery dramas,
with the lecture cycles on karmic relationships, which marks
an explosion in this subject, coming very late.
Detlef
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:03 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
Detlef:
Because neither Raphael nor Leornado nor
anyone else reincarnated. They died. Personalities don't reincarnate!
They have only one life to live. Watch how Steiner phrases it:
Dr. Steiner:
"Occult investigation
finds that in Elijah, in John the Baptist, in Raphael, in Novalis,
the same Individuality lived and worked. "
Dear Detlef,
Thank you for taking the time for the point
above. I also found this yesterday in From Jesus to Christ and
it caught my attention and now I have a clearer understanding
to the question it posed to me.
A friend of mine who I consider a well knowledgable
man on spirit revelations confused me one day when he said 'what
do you mean he reincarnated?' All this time I had been wondering
what he meant when obviously we incarnate again but I had felt
unconfidant to ask him the question. So, thank you.
Dottie
p.s. I also came across a comment by an artist
in a book about spending the years with Dr. Steiner. In here
he speaks of the point that Dr. Steiner took a long time to be
able to name a book or lecture after Christ. He had to weight
this thought in his mind for quite a while before he allowed
himself to speak it. It calls to mind your thought on the reverence
of a thing.
I am wondering if you have time to share if
you speak or guide groups of students in Anthroposophy?
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
Danny:
And for you Dottie a Special:
Friend with the 2 Jesus Boys
In Olga's Gallery Collection!
http://www.abcgallery.com/R/raphael/raphael90.html
Danny, who is the third. I just saw this picture
last night I believe and I can not read German but it seems to
me that it does not mention the third.
Also in Fra Angelics 'Noli me tanger :( I
am wondering how you interpret the painting. I see wheat in the
background and Jesus seems to have a 'reaper' don't really know
what they are called:) at this moment in time. I am finding it
is more than just the words 'don't touch me I have not risen
to my Father'. Something else is in there but what? What else
is this moment trying to say? As well as the Last Supper. What
else is this scene trying to tell us besides what we normally
come to. Something is wanting to come forward what is it?
Good Sunday,
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:34 pm
Subject: Re: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
Hi Dottie!
The third boy (the one to our left of Mary)
is the young John, later to be the Baptist (Jesus' cousin) you
can usually tell, because in most paintings he is wearing an
animal skin and has a "staff" like the one in the picture
(even though etherial).
Remember, when Magdalene first saw the Risen
Christ, she thought he was the gardener.
: ) Christine
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: R: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Novalis
At 22:53 14.03.2004, Detlef wrote:
You may think I'm nitpicking. But for me
this is an important spiritual distinction. You are certainly
not the only one to disregard it through at least sloppy phrasing.
But it always makes me cringe. Beyond the fact that I don't think
it appropriate to talk about things like this in the same manner
as we talk about changing our brand of toothpaste. I would welcome
a little more respect towards these issues, which, after all,
Steiner only spoke of very late in his life - and that was surely
not because he lacked the knowledge to do so previously.
I do appreciate your pointing out the difference
between the personalities (which are temporary, belonging to
one incarnation only) and the individualities the entelechies,
that evolve through cycles of birth and death. For the record:
I don't intend any disrespect when saying that someone
was the reincarnation of someone else, and I would never say
that a personality reincarnates. I believe that's part of the
reason why we grieve so much when someone dies, regardless of
our spiritual awareness: We miss the personality, which is gone
forever.
Your comparison to changing our brand of toothpaste
reminds me of certain trends in New Age that take a superficial
and materialistic approach to reincarnation by giving the impression
that it's a matter of jumping in and out of bodies, skipping
the long journey through the Kamaloka and Devachan and the Zodiac
(under Lucifer's guidance) altogether. Some of the most amoral
materialists and criminals spend an extremely short time between
incarnations because they're blind to everything on the other
side.
The Scientologists, among others, give the
impression that they're jumping in and out of bodies.
Incidentally, I tried to approach this subject
in November with the thread "Popular Spirituality":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/175
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:35 pm
Subject: Novalis
Detlef Hardorp wrote
you have already been corrected concerning
the personalities involved. May I chide you for something else?
That is the basic misunderstanding behind a statement like the
above. Because neither Raphael nor Leornado nor anyone else reincarnated.
They died. Personalities don't reincarnate! They have only one
life to live. Watch how Steiner phrases it:
"Occult investigation
finds that in Elijah, in John the Baptist, in Raphael, in Novalis,
the same Individuality lived and worked. "
The Individuality is not to be identified
with the personality!
You may think I'm nitpicking. But for me this is an important
spiritual distinction. You are certainly not the only one to
disregard it through at least sloppy phrasing. But it always
makes me cringe. Beyond the fact that I don't think it appropriate
to talk about things like this in the same manner as we talk
about changing our brand of toothpaste. I would welcome a little
more respect towards these issues, which, after all, Steiner
only spoke of very late in his life - and that was surely not
because he lacked the knowledge to do so previously.
Detlef Hardorp
Bradford comments;
Each incarnation is a virgin Personality.
Steiner admonished us to treat each human as a hidden 'enigma'
based on Reincarnation. Indeed the kids get a little rowdy sometimes,
once they start fumbling around in the box of matches, however
the discipline to study what was given in the Karma Lectures,
and merely let them saturate the soul can begin at least a reconstruction
of failed historical impulses.
Now, to set the record straight here. Elijah
does get very, very angry and slaughters about 400 priests, so
it was rumored. Why? Well Elijah is our incredible Forerunner
of Anthroposophy and Spiritual Science aka John the Baptist.
The Law of if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword
comes home to John the Baptist, when his head is severed and
it becomes for us a Midsummer festival. Ancient race forming
forces of the Hebrews shall decrease while the Christ Sun shall
increase.
Having said the magic word, John the Baptist,
we also have the one clear cut indication of reincarnation. "Who
is John the Baptist, some say he is Elijah"...now we see
how easy it is to skip over and be selective and use selective
intelligence on what Christ was saying. How easy it is to avoid
the stunning work of Christ in the I AM incarnation placement
service. But it gets better!
As students of the Michael School, if you
are merely walking with a blindfold on, the knowledge that Raphael
who paints the incredible "School of Athens" and Novalis
the quiet poet who breaks through the Stars into Sophia country
were one and same individual; and if you look very closely you
can see the relation between Goethe and Novalis as even more
powerful than the relation between Goethe and Schiller.
Christic history and Christic art follows
trails that are still unwritten and stunning to explore. For
my money, Time has shown that Novalis was the key figure and
the first forerunner of Spiritual Science and this Steiner agrees
with. What is lacking, is sheer wonder at the depth of what is
being discussed here and comparing it to your normal everyday
laundry list. I'm not afraid of the depth using Steiner as my
measurement.
John the Baptist, fellow Essene, and part
of the Angelic welcoming assembly, played with Jesus, was hugged
and had his diapers changed by Mary the mother of Jesus..His
Angel stirred in Elizabeth's womb. Raphael later comes to paint
the soul impression he had absorbed from Mary and Elizabeth and
it stands as historical. Raphael goes on to paint the union of
Platonism and Pauline/Aristotleism in his remarkable School of
Athens and Steiner, the Christic Historian, picks all this up.
Steiner the Christic Historian. Steiner the Christic Historian..do
you not hear the title of a great work?
When packing for an outing to Sophia country,
you need to take maps and tales with you. There are many obscure
and lost insights that intelligence today fails at understanding
or grasping how to really go behind the stars.
You may say, pooh, pooh, Imagination is out
of my league, I cannot even deal with reality. Spiritual Science
gives you the tools and you throw them in the waste basket? Did
you ever imagine that it could really be fun, when you put the
insights together and see how they actually tick? That the intellect
is dry and easy, but Imagination is powerful and precise and
leads behind the stars.
You need to pack for your excursion to Sophia
country, Howard Pyle and his "Garden Behind the Moon"
as well as He who sat at the feet of Mary the mother of Jesus,
John the Baptist, aka, Novalis and his Blue Flower and his entire
experience of Hymns to the Night. If you cannot stand stunned
that John the Baptist is the very author Novalis...you are simply
a dried prune. Proof of stunning reality is the whole joy of
the adventure of Spiritual Science. Not using the tools of JOY
for awakening your heart is, well, shrinking, shrinking, shrinking.
Willi Sucher had wonderful silver and curly,
curly, ringlets of silver hair. Even this is an observation of
forces in the incarnation that reveal a cosmic background. Willi
Sucher was a seeker of Sophia and helped create Astrosophy. I
met him and it still sticks in my minds eye the wonderful man.
He knew of Sophia. So Sophia is a Star Wisdom that comes down
to plants, seasons, time of birth, and what forces are given
to each soul in their etheric and astral combinations. How to
insert the I Am, and where to insert the I Am into family, heredity
or cloning.
In Steiner's research on how in the sixth
epoch a vast change in the moral and etheric forces will happen
should shock us. Because we can see and are living through the
current emancipation of surgically chopping out etheric design
codes into potential cloning. This all has to do with which direction
the hardening of the etheric goes. Beastward or Christward...
and humans are the most deadly monsters on the planet.
It should concern us, it should make us still
inside and catch our breath. We are looking at how the fifth
epoch is performing a robbery of human etheric forces and Steiner
showed how these forces would and are currently becoming the
image of our incarnations moral unfolding. They will no longer
be connected to Race. We each will be our own moral force from
what we have made of ourselves in past incarnations. Sophia will
be working directly with us. Do we not need to find a path to
her door? We do. Do we need to think, think and think again what
these tiny indications that Steiner gives imply? We do.
George McDonald, Curdie and Sophia
Curdie's Mission is a mission of discernment
and refinement. Christed Etheric Moral forces are in the Fire
Place of Burning Roses. It is what we experience after death
to enter heaven. We feel the burning away of desires, cravings
and earthly hungers that no longer suit the higher levels of
consciousness.
Curdie sticks his hand into the Devachan fire
and we understand, or should understand, few understand, that
we are dealing with a moral fire. I have many, many times experienced
with certain people an intense heat, that came from their hands,
and if you hugged them, you could feel this enveloping fire,
and it wasn't lust or anything to do with lust, it was a bathing
fire, that reached a very high pitch. I would comment on the
observation and it could easily be felt but we fail to absorb
what this fire is. That is why we fail to understand the difference
between radioactive burning through and Moral Etheric Forces
of the Rose leading us to the Devachan and higher concepts of
Science. It is very simple really, it is just you don't know
what to observe or to connect to what. If you have begun the
process of innwardly connecting the dots, the world is AWESOME.
http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext96/prcur10.txt
"...he reached the door
of the princess's workroom, and knocked.
'Come in,' said the voice
of the princess.
Curdie opened the door - but,
to his astonishment, saw no room there. Could he have opened
a wrong door? There was the great sky, and the stars, and beneath
he could see nothing only darkness! But what was that in the
sky, straight in front of him? A great wheel of fire, turning
and turning, and flashing out blue lights!
'Come in, Curdie,' said the
voice again.
'I would at once, ma'am,'
said Curdie, 'if I were sure I was standing at your door.'
'Why should you doubt it,
Curdie?'
'Because I see neither walls
nor floor, only darkness and the great sky.'
'That is all right, Curdie. Come in.'
Curdie stepped forward at
once. He was indeed, for the very crumb of a moment, tempted
to feel before him with his foot; but he saw that would be to
distrust the princess, and a greater rudeness he could not offer
her. So he stepped straight in - I will not say without a little
tremble at the thought of finding no floor beneath his foot.
But that which had need of the floor found it, and his foot was
satisfied.
"No sooner was he in
than he saw that the great revolving wheel in the sky was the
princess's spinning wheel, near the other end of the room, turning
very fast. He could see no sky or stars any more, but the wheel
was flashing out blue - oh, such lovely sky-blue light! - and
behind it of course sat the princess, but whether an old woman
as thin as a skeleton leaf, or a glorious lady as young as perfection,
he could not tell for the turning and flashing of the wheel.
'Listen to the wheel,' said
the voice which had already grown dear to Curdie: its very tone
was precious like a jewel, not as a jewel, for no jewel could
compare with it in preciousness.
And Curdie listened and listened.
Now you are listening, with Curdie, to "The
Music of the Spheres". Now we are listening to what Kepler
saw in the Geometry of the planets, in the music of matter. But
how would you even know to go to Kepler and to Tycho De Brahe
in history and find out that here again we find Sophia... there
is also a Great german Mystic who speaks directly of Sophia...
Jakob Boehme (Böhme, Behm) (1575-1624). If you really want
to know about Sophia you will do just as Danny has said. You
will look up the Egyptian Goddess NUT. Her body is the entire
arch of the Heavens and we feed off her lunar breasts, which
connects directly to all that you should scramble to understand
about Diana of Ephesus.
In Tycho, like Novalis, we are dealing with
Tycho as the strange woman named Herzaloyde, mother of Parsifal.
If you cannot be dumb founded and warmly shocked by reality how
will you ever uncover the Curdie forces of discernment that George
MacDonald brought in for us? What about Kepler? We know he was
incarnated in Egypt and obviously understood a great deal about
NUT..he carried over his Egyptian Initation into his Kepler incarnation.
What are we scared of, knowing the trails and back tracks that
will get us on the right road, means we have to learn to put
current education in its deserved place. It means we have to
learn how to self correct and listen with intense interest to
thousands and thousands of seemingly unimportant events.
'What is it saying?' asked
the voice.
'It is singing,' answered
Curdie.
'What is it singing?'
Curdie tried to make out,
but thought he could not; for no sooner had he got hold of something
than it vanished again.
Yet he listened, and listened,
entranced with delight.
'Thank you, Curdie, said the
voice.
'Ma'am,' said Curdie, 'I did
try hard for a while, but I could not make anything of it.'
'Oh yes, you did, and you
have been telling it to me! Shall I tell you again what I told
my wheel, and my wheel told you, and you have just told me without
knowing it?'
'Please, ma'am.'
Then the lady began to sing,
and her wheel spun an accompaniment to her song, and the music
of the wheel was like the music of an Aeolian harp blown upon
by the wind that bloweth where it listeth. Oh, the sweet sounds
of that spinning wheel! Now they were gold, now silver, now grass,
now palm trees, now ancient cities, now rubies, now mountain
brooks, now peacock's feathers, now clouds, now snowdrops, and
now mid-sea islands. But for the voice that sang through it all,
about that I have no words to tell. It would make you weep if
I were able to tell you what that was like, it was so beautiful
and true and lovely. But this is something like the words of
its song:
The stars are spinning their
threads, And the clouds are the dust that flies, And the suns
are weaving them up For the time when the sleepers shall rise.
The ocean in music rolls,
And gems are turning to eyes, And the trees are gathering souls
For the day when the sleepers shall rise.
The weepers are learning to
smile, And laughter to glean the sighs; Burn and bury the care
and guile, For the day when the sleepers shall rise.
oh, the dews and the moths
and the daisy red, The larks and the glimmers and flows! The
lilies and sparrows and daily bread, And the something that nobody
knows!
The princess stopped, her
wheel stopped, and she laughed. And her laugh was sweeter than
song and wheel; sweeter than running brook and silver bell; sweeter
than joy itself, for the heart of the laugh was love.
'Come now, Curdie, to this
side of my wheel, and you will find me,' she said; and her laugh
seemed sounding on still in the words, as if they were made of
breath that had laughed.
Curdie obeyed, and passed
the wheel, and there she stood to receive him! - fairer than
when he saw her last, a little younger still, and dressed not
in green and emeralds, but in pale blue, with a coronet of silver
set with pearls, and slippers covered with opals that gleamed
every colour of the rainbow. It was some time before Curdie could
take his eyes from the marvel of her loveliness. Fearing at last
that he was rude, he turned them away; and, behold, he was in
a room that was for beauty marvellous! The lofty ceiling was
all a golden vine, Whose great clusters of carbuncles, rubies,
and chrysoberyls hung down like the bosses of groined arches,
and in its centre hung the most glorious lamp that human eyes
ever saw - the Silver Moon itself, a globe of silver, as it seemed,
with a heart of light so wondrous potent that it rendered the
mass translucent, and altogether radiant.
The room was so large that,
looking back, he could scarcely see the end at which he entered;
but the other was only a few yards from him - and there he saw
another wonder: on a huge hearth a great fire was burning, and
the fire was a huge heap of roses, and yet it was fire. The smell
of the roses filled the air, and the heat of the flames of them
glowed upon his face. He turned an inquiring look upon the lady,
and saw that she was now seated in an ancient chair, the legs
of which were crusted with gems, but the upper part like a nest
of daisies and moss and green grass."
Bradford
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:00 pm
Subject: Mona Lisa (was: Novalis)
At 20:15 14.03.2004, Dottie wrote:
And yesterday I had a Mona Lisa smile moment.
Wow. Reminds me of that wonderful song with
Nat King Cole:
Mona Lisa, Mona Lisa
Men have named you
You're so like the lady
With the mystic smile
Is it only cause you're lonely
They have blamed you
For that Mona Lisa
Strangeness in your smile
Do you smile to tempt a lover,
Mona Lisa
Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
Many dreams
Have been brought
To your doorstep...
They just lie there...
And they die there...
Are you warm,
Are you real,
Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely,
Lovely work of art?
Mona Lisa, Mona Lisa
Men have named you
You're so like the lady
With the mystic smile
Is it only cause you're lonely
They have blamed you
For that Mona Lisa
Strangeness in your smile
Do you smile to tempt a lover,
Mona Lisa
Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
Many dreams
Have been brought
To your doorstep...
They just lie there...
And they die there...
Are you warm,
Are you real,
Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely,
Lovely work of art?
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:54 pm
Subject: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
Christine:
The third boy (the one to our left of Mary)
is the young John, later to be the Baptist (Jesus' cousin) you
can usually tell, because in most paintings he is wearing an
animal skin and has a "staff" like the one in the picture
(even though etherial).
Wait a second. I know the one carring the
cross staff, which to me later becomes the symbol the Popes carry,
is John the Baptist. Are you saying that Raphael drew two Jesus
boys? That would be astonishing to me.
Dottie
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:02 pm
Subject: Re: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
YUP! : )
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
Christine:
YUP! : )
Who said that? Did Dr. Steiner say that these
three people are specifically the two Jesus boys and John the
Baptist? And where did he say this if anyone can recall?
Whew,
...................................................................................................................................
From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
Well, there are lots of pix with two boys
- usually one Jesus and one John the Baptist. But when you see
three boys - what does that tell you?
I don't know of a reference to this particular
painting. Maybe someone else does.
Christine
...................................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:31 pm
Subject: Re: Rép. : [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
--- golden3000997 wrote:
Well, there are lots of pix with two boys
- usually one Jesus and one John the Baptist. But when you see
three boys - what does that tell you?
It tells me a girl is in the mix:)
is what it tells me:)
By the way it seems in my opinion that Rittlemayer
and Sergio Prokofieff do not see the Lazarus rising in the same
manner Mr. Smith speaks on. I believe there is something fuzzy
in the way it is expressed in the views I have seen here and
in both of his books I have now read or at least the parts I
have read. I will give a quote from both these men in the next
few days. It seems to me they are alluding to something different
although I am sure not what I am trying to express. I am sure
you will wait with abaited breath for this:)
Dottiee
...................................................................................................................................
From: Frank Thomas Smith
Date: Tue Mar 16, 2004 12:25 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: Novalis
There's a nice novel (Booker Prize) about
Novalis and Sophie von Kühn, whom N fell in love with when
she was 12 years old. Author: Penelope Fitzgerald, title: The
Blue Flower.
Frank
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