The Christ Impulse

 

From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:41 am
Subject: The Christ Impulse

Hi Diana,

The apostle Paul wrote:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16-18

Is this racist? Is this a dangerous and nutty mission for the Jews?

The Christ Impulse, or Salvation, comes from the Jews, who provided a physical vehicle for the Christ to incarnate and perform His Deed on Golgotha for mankind. This Christ Impulse, this mission of the Risen One, was then further developed among the Europeans, who spread it to the rest of the world.

Is this also racist? Is Christianity and its evolution through the centuries a nutty and dangerous mission reminiscent of your redneck neighbor?

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: winters_diana
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:29 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16-18

Is this racist? Is this a dangerous and nutty mission for the Jews?

It is certainly not my cup of tea. It is a little hard for me to deconstruct something based on premises that I can't begin to relate to, but yes, when you set up schemes for "salvation" and begin specifying who should get there first, and how those going first should help the others coming later, well, to me, this is not a very good plan, and I'm not surprised if it has fanned flames of racism and encouraged homicidal missions - as indeed the Bible has been used to justify many, many times.

The Christ Impulse, or Salvation, comes from the Jews, who provided a physical vehicle for the Christ to incarnate and perform His Deed on Golgotha for mankind. This Christ Impulse, this mission of the Risen One, was then further developed among the Europeans, who spread it to the rest of the world.

Yes, I find these concepts very unpalatable, they are totally incompatible with my world view. I don't believe in a God who picks "suitable bodies" for his purposes and rejects other (I think I'm referring to an earlier post of yours about God picking the Jews to get the right body for Christ, thus explaining the "marvelous genepool" the Jews have to contribute to humanity today). I think these ideas are disgusting, frankly.

Is this also racist? Is Christianity and its evolution through the centuries a nutty and dangerous mission reminiscent of your redneck neighbor?

It has often taken this form, yes. "Christians" today, as a general rule, are not racists, IMO. Christian missions have certainly often been fueled by racism historically.

Diana

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:57 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse

The apostle Paul wrote:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16-18

I wrote:

Is this racist? Is this a dangerous and nutty mission for the Jews?

Diana wrote:

It is certainly not my cup of tea. It is a little hard for me to deconstruct something based on premises that I can't begin to relate to, but yes, when you set up schemes for "salvation" and begin specifying who should get there first, and how those going first should help the others coming later, well, to me, this is not a very good plan, and I'm not surprised if it has fanned flames of racism and encouraged homicidal missions - as indeed the Bible has been used to justify many, many times.

Tarjei:

Thank you, Diana. God is a racist then, first by creating humanity in racial groups, then by picking one such racial group as his "chosen people" with the mission of hosting the Savior of humanity, and thirdly for allowing this Christ Idea to evolve and mature through Greece and the rest of Europe, i.e. through the so-called "white people" before reaching the rest of humanity. I guess God is one of those philo-Semitic anti-Semitic racists that Peter S is trying to cram into a Volkswagen as Bradford observed. If it's a bug, you can proceed in the same manner you would with five elephants: Two in the front and three in the back.

Tarjei:

The Christ Impulse, or Salvation, comes from the Jews, who provided a physical vehicle for the Christ to incarnate and perform His Deed on Golgotha for mankind. This Christ Impulse, this mission of the Risen One, was then further developed among the Europeans, who spread it to the rest of the world.

Diana:

Yes, I find these concepts very unpalatable, they are totally incompatible with my world view. I don't believe in a God who picks "suitable bodies" for his purposes and rejects other (I think I'm referring to an earlier post of yours about God picking the Jews to get the right body for Christ, thus explaining the "marvelous genepool" the Jews have to contribute to humanity today). I think these ideas are disgusting, frankly.

Tarjei:

I guess God would have been less disgusting if he had picked "unsuitable bodies" for his purposes instead, then. The lowest common denominator, making the mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.

Tarjei:

Is this also racist? Is Christianity and its evolution through the centuries a nutty and dangerous mission reminiscent of your redneck neighbor?

Diana:

It has often taken this form, yes. "Christians" today, as a general rule, are not racists, IMO.

Tarjei:

In other words, God is a racist, but many of His followers are not, just like RS was a racist although many anthroposophists are not?

Diana:

Christian missions have certainly often been fueled by racism historically.

Tarjei:

Thinking of the KKK as a Christian mission?

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: winters_diana
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:41 pm
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse

Tarjei:

Thank you, Diana. God is a racist then,

Yawn. I'm sorry, Tarjei, I know this idea upsets you a lot, and I sympathize, but we can't reach common ground on it because we start from such different premises. One more time, it is my view that people write these stories, not God, so I don't see God winding up accused of racism in this scenario. I don't believe in a God that sends races on different missions.

We just start from different places. I don't believe the stories in the Bible are all true, and I don't take the Judeo-Christian God as a real personage with a reputation in need of defending. You don't seem able to recognize that there are other people who believe in other types of god/gods or spiritual realities in which the deity does not send races on missions. I can't get into a scriptural analysis with you (I'm sure you know far more than I), but I do also know that there are many Christians today who do not believe in racial missions and would be a bit embarrassed to hear notions such as the European/white skin "mission" to bring Christianity to the rest of the world. Blech.

Tarjei:

I guess God would have been less disgusting if he had picked "unsuitable bodies" for his purposes instead, then.

I don't think God deems some bodies suitable and others unsuitable.

The lowest common denominator, making the mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.

Would you have a problem with that? In fact there are many traditions and legends about God appearing in exactly such forms. Actually I'm wondering if you in fact missed the point of the New Testament . . . Puts me in mind of that Joan Osborne song, "What if God was one of us . . ."

Diana

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse

At 21:41 23.03.2004, Diana wrote:

Tarjei:

Thank you, Diana. God is a racist then,

Yawn. I'm sorry, Tarjei, I know this idea upsets you a lot, and I sympathize, but we can't reach common ground on it because we start from such different premises.

You're wrong, Diana. It does not upset me. On the contrary, I'm pleased to see your distortions revealed. Yawning won't get you off the hook.

One more time, it is my view that people write these stories, not God, so I don't see God winding up accused of racism in this scenario.

In other words, the accused is a nobody in somebody's twisted fantasy. Again, I thank you.

I don't believe in a God that sends races on different missions.

What kind of God do you believe in? A God who makes races by accidental error, or who crams them into a bug?

We just start from different places. I don't believe the stories in the Bible are all true, and I don't take the Judeo-Christian God as a real personage with a reputation in need of defending.

What stories do you believe? Could you tell us just one such story?

You don't seem able to recognize that there are other people who believe in other types of god/gods or spiritual realities in which the deity does not send races on missions.

What God or type of deity are you talking about who "doesn't send races on missions"? What religion or mythology are you referring to here?

I can't get into a scriptural analysis with you (I'm sure you know far more than I), but I do also know that there are many Christians today who do not believe in racial missions and would be a bit embarrassed to hear notions such as the European/white skin "mission" to bring Christianity to the rest of the world. Blech.

The Christians you're referring to, would they be embarrassed about the mission of the Hebrews to provide a physical body for the Christ, and about the Jews being God's Chosen People for that reason? And these same Christians, would they be embarrassed about Europe being a cradle for the evolution of the church and the Christ-idea before it spread to other continents and cultures? Thirdly, would these Christians be embarrassed about the complexion of Europeans you keep referring to? If so, please quote a "Christian" source of that kind, please.

Tarjei:

I guess God would have been less disgusting if he had picked "unsuitable bodies" for his purposes instead, then.

I don't think God deems some bodies suitable and others unsuitable.

What do you think God does or deems then?

The lowest common denominator, making the mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.

Would you have a problem with that?

Absolutely not, Diana. Whatever your own God is doing or thinking, I have no problem with it whatsoever.

In fact there are many traditions and legends about God appearing in exactly such forms.

Please tell me about one such tradition or legend.

Actually I'm wondering if you in fact missed the point of the New Testament . . .

Please show me what I've missed and how and why I've missed it.

Puts me in mind of that Joan Osborne song, "What if God was one of us . . ."

He was. Please tell me more about your God - what He/She does and thinks and deems and so forth.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: winters_diana
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:49 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse

[Tarjei:]

You're wrong, Diana. It does not upset me. On the contrary, I'm pleased to see your distortions revealed. Yawning won't get you off the hook.

It's just humorous to me to see you trying so hard to get me to say "God is a racist." Haven't we been round and round on this? "Off the hook"? What am I on your hook for? Not believing in God? (Haven't I said that a bunch of times now?)

You really think I'm a meanie, don't you? Last week you had me planning God's funeral. But I should have held a trial first, and condemned him to execution, on (trumped up) charges of racism.

I'll just repeat what you replied to earlier:

One more time, it is my view that people write these stories, not God, so I don't see God winding up accused of racism in this scenario.

In other words, the accused is a nobody in somebody's twisted fantasy. Again, I thank you.

You're welcome. If you feel better about this now, that's good. As I keep pointing out, there is really no reason to think that your god did the things you seem to think I've, er, accused him of, or rather, not accused him of. (How do you accuse "nobody" of something?)

What kind of God do you believe in? A God who makes races by accidental error, or who crams them into a bug?

I don't know what the bug thing is about at all, something about cramming elephants into Volkswagens but I didn't get it. I don't have an image of God that would interest or amuse you, I'm afraid. I'm sorry. Geez, why did God make races? I don't know. Why did God make grasshoppers, or seaweed, or rats and bugs or why did he make my two beautiful cats? I think it is actually rather "materialist" to assume we must have an answer "explaining" every last blade of grass or genus/species. I was at the zoo with some kids yesterday. There's a lot of strange creatures God made, if you want to look at it that way. Spent a lot of time in the monkey house, thought of you Tarjei :) (hey – not an insult; referring to our previous discussion about monkeys). Why did God make all those monkeys? Why did he make so many different kinds of monkeys? Are they all on missions?

They built a new monkey house at our zoo a few years ago, and some of the chimps stayed one step ahead of the planners, and kept finding ways to escape to the roof. Just a few genes' difference, remember, between the chimps and their human, um, caretakers.

What stories do you believe? Could you tell us just one such story?

No. I don't respond well to demands that I confess to faith, to "What do you believe" posed as a challenge. (You may have noticed I don't generally respond at all.) But if you'd like some small personal insight, I'll say that I find comfort in the fact that even though I will not live forever, other people will go on. I'm not comfortable insisting (or looking for evidence) that I must come back or I must continue in some form (in another incarnation, in Heaven, or on some other plane, or some other planet a la Steiner). I do find it reassuring to think that although I will not, others will, that I am part of something bigger, just briefly.

There aren't any specific mythologies that strike me as definitely "the truth," compared to all the others. (There are lots of them that I think have pieces of truth in them.) I have lots of beliefs, of course, but they really aren't in story form the way you like them, so I can't type them up quickly or refer you to the Sacred Text of any particular faith like the "Michael School."

What God or type of deity are you talking about who "doesn't send races on missions"? What religion or mythology are you referring to here?

Amazing thought, huh, a God that doesn't send people on racial missions?! My parents, with whom I agree on very little theologically, believe in the Judeo-Christian God, and they certainly don't think he sends races on missions! When I asked them this, they found the concept shocking. The mainstream churches would not teach anything like that today. Such beliefs are held onto only in certain fringe groups.

The Christians you're referring to, would they be embarrassed about the mission of the Hebrews to provide a physical body for the Christ,

Where exactly do you find support for this, outside of Steiner? Again, I am hardly the person to get into a Scripture-quoting thing with, I sure don't know my Scripture. I doubt I will ever crack Scripture again as long as I live. Maybe the Bible says this. The Bible says many, many things I don't live by, as you know. I do know there are many Christians who don't take Biblical prescriptions literally, or view all stories in the Bible as describing a literal physical reality. They might say, for instance, that even if this was believed among the early Christians it doesn't mean Christians today have to take it at face value, let alone make some absurd extrapolation from the fact that Jesus was a Jew, to the Jews today contributing a "marvelous genepool for humanity." I mean, to me, it is just nonsense. You could as well say God "chose" Jesus for his, whatever, a mole on his elbow, and start saying everyone with a mole on their elbow is on a mission.

and about the Jews being God's Chosen People for that reason?

Excuse me, again I may well be showing my ignorance of Biblical matters, but if I'm not mistaken, the Jews don't see themselves as the Chosen People for this reason! Didn't their Covenant with God go back a bit further than that?

And these same Christians, would they be embarrassed about Europe being a cradle for the evolution of the church and the Christ-idea before it spread to other continents and cultures? Thirdly, would these Christians be embarrassed about the complexion of Europeans you keep referring to? If so, please quote a "Christian" source of that kind, please.

Who said anyone should be embarrassed about their complexion? People should be embarrassed to hear their complexion described as an indicator of their spiritual mission. Yes. And yes – there are plenty of Christians who do not make anything mystical out of the fact that Christianity spread from Europe, and are even ashamed of the actions of some Christians to spread Christianity from Europe. It wasn't always a pretty picture, Tarjei, and it is time to get over the idea that it was a really neat mission.

You wrote:

The lowest common denominator, making the mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.

and I asked:

Would you have a problem with that?

[Tarjei:]

Absolutely not, Diana.

Oh. It sounded like your God had something against foul-mouthed junkies. I thought he was supposed to be compassionate, and loving and all that. Sorting out bodies by "suitability" for "missions" does not sound like the loving-kindess part of Christianity (which I do respect).

Whatever your own God is doing or thinking, I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Oh. You were being sarcastic. You do think your God would scorn the foul-mouthed junkies.

fact there are many traditions and legends about God appearing in exactly such forms.

Please tell me about one such tradition or legend.

You know, the poor, ragged stranger begging for food whom you're supposed to be kind to, because he might turn out to be a saint, or even God. Down on his luck, a homeless person, maybe even a junkie, yes. It's even in Grimms fairy tales, like all Waldorf children learn, no? It is in the myths of many cultures. I will look for one if you like. My son and I were reading some Chinese folk tales and there is more than one like that in there. The bedraggled stranger who has some small piece of wisdom to pass on, but everyone ignores him, children throw stones at him. One person gives him a crust of bread. That person is then richly rewarded by heaven.

Actually I'm wondering if you in fact missed the point of the New Testament . . .

Please show me what I've missed and how and why I've missed it.

Okay: compassion, tolerance, loving kindness, refraining from judgment. All the stuff Dottie is talking about, about the prostitutes. Loving the sinners. A rather different mindset from judging the "suitability of bodies." "Faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love."

Puts me in mind of that Joan Osborne song, "What if God was one of us . . ."

He was. Please tell me more about your God - what He/She does and thinks and deems and so forth.

Quit taunting me. It isn't spiritual. God wouldn't like it.

Diana

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From: winters_diana
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:56 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse

Here, you asked:

Please tell me about one such tradition or legend.

(God appearing in lowly form, perhaps even as someone who doesn't have a marvelous genepool):

Joan Osborne, "What if God Was One of Us":

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:32 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse

At 14:49 24.03.2004, Diana wrote:

It's just humorous to me to see you trying so hard to get me to say "God is a racist." Haven't we been round and round on this? "Off the hook"? What am I on your hook for? Not believing in God?

No Diana. Most of my best friends are atheists and agnostics and don't believe in God. You're on the hook for distorting, misrepresenting, and falsifying Rudolf Steiner's concepts, and while you're at it, distorting, misrepresenting, and falsifying the concepts of those who take Steiner seriously, whether or not they call themselves anthroposophists.

(Haven't I said that a bunch of times now?)

You've been distorting Steiner a bunch of times, yes.

You really think I'm a meanie, don't you?

I don't know what you are, because I don't understand what you mean when you say you're here because you want to learn more about Anthroposophy in order to understand it when it's obviously "not your cup of tea."

Last week you had me planning God's funeral.

No I didn't. I only thought Nietzsche might be more your cup of tea than Steiner, so I recommended "Thus Spake Zarathustra".

But I should have held a trial first, and condemned him to execution, on (trumped up) charges of racism.

Who has been talking about executing God? Are you talking about the Sanhedrin and the Roman soldiers here or what?

I don't know what the bug thing is about at all, something about cramming elephants into Volkswagens but I didn't get it.

You didn't get it? Didn't you just say that Bradford is a guru who solves all the mysteries? Bradford has solved the Mystery of the Volkswagen, the anti-Semites, and Peter Staudenmaier's racial mission. How could you miss that when you said Bradford was a guru who solved everything?

I don't have an image of God that would interest or amuse you, I'm afraid.

It doesn't matter. Just tell us how you believe the universe came into existence and how biological life began. What do you think about Darwin's research and about Goethe's contribution to the Missing Link?

I'm sorry. Geez, why did God make races? I don't know. Why did God make grasshoppers, or seaweed, or rats and bugs or why did he make my two beautiful cats? I think it is actually rather "materialist" to assume we must have an answer "explaining" every last blade of grass or genus/species.

I'm not going to discuss the definition of materialism with you, but assuming that there is a God who made grasshoppers and rats and bugs and cats, he wouldn't give them any missions I understand. They woulon't have any tasks or functions.

I was at the zoo with some kids yesterday. There's a lot of strange creatures God made, if you want to look at it that way. Spent a lot of time in the monkey house, thought of you Tarjei :) (hey – not an insult; referring to our previous discussion about monkeys). Why did God make all those monkeys? Why did he make so many different kinds of monkeys? Are they all on missions?

Gorillas an chimps and so on? No I guess they wouldn't be on any missions or have any functions either. I wonder what all this fuss is about rescuing endangered species when there's no point in having them around in the first place.

No. I don't respond well to demands that I confess to faith, to "What do you believe" posed as a challenge. (You may have noticed I don't generally respond at all.) But if you'd like some small personal insight, I'll say that I find comfort in the fact that even though I will not live forever, other people will go on.

Other people will live forever?

I'm not comfortable insisting (or looking for evidence) that I must come back or I must continue in some form (in another incarnation, in Heaven, or on some other plane, or some other planet a la Steiner). I do find it reassuring to think that although I will not, others will, that I am part of something bigger, just briefly.

So others will reincarnate, but you don't want to be a part of it. Is your loathing of Anthroposophy based upon fear of higher powers forcing you into a cycle of reincarnations?

There aren't any specific mythologies that strike me as definitely "the truth," compared to all the others. (There are lots of them that I think have pieces of truth in them.) I have lots of beliefs, of course, but they really aren't in story form the way you like them, so I can't type them up quickly or refer you to the Sacred Text of any particular faith like the "Michael School."

Doesn't matter. Just go on about your many beliefs. UFO's, Star Trek, the Rapture, life in distant galaxies, alien monsters in black holes or whatever. Let's have it.

Amazing thought, huh, a God that doesn't send people on racial missions?!

OK. God does not send races on missions, and he does not send people on racial missions. What's the difference between these types of missions btw?

My parents, with whom I agree on very little theologically, believe in the Judeo-Christian God, and they certainly don't think he sends races on missions! When I asked them this, they found the concept shocking.

Interesting. I wonder how you phrased the question. When you talk about God sending people on racial missions or sending races on missions, it sounds like Star Trek, its Five Year Mission. Perhaps peoples have had missions at home, where they were living.

The mainstream churches would not teach anything like that today. Such beliefs are held onto only in certain fringe groups.

I see. So the mainstream churches do not believe that the Hebrews received a special mission from Yahve through Abraham and Melchisidek and Moses - a mission promising the arrival of a Messiah? Only "certain fringe groups" believe that?

"For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." - Deuteronomy 7:6

The Christians you're referring to, would they be embarrassed about the mission of the Hebrews to provide a physical body for the Christ,

Where exactly do you find support for this, outside of Steiner?

It's in the Bible.

Again, I am hardly the person to get into a Scripture-quoting thing with, I sure don't know my Scripture. I doubt I will ever crack Scripture again as long as I live. Maybe the Bible says this. The Bible says many, many things I don't live by, as you know. I do know there are many Christians who don't take Biblical prescriptions literally, or view all stories in the Bible as describing a literal physical reality. They might say, for instance, that even if this was believed among the early Christians it doesn't mean Christians today have to take it at face value, let alone make some absurd extrapolation from the fact that Jesus was a Jew, to the Jews today contributing a "marvelous genepool for humanity." I mean, to me, it is just nonsense.

Of course it is. According to your line of reasoning, Mary mother of Jesus might as well have been a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver; that would have made God "one of us" like he's supposed to be.

You could as well say God "chose" Jesus for his, whatever, a mole on his elbow, and start saying everyone with a mole on their elbow is on a mission.

Whatever......

Excuse me, again I may well be showing my ignorance of Biblical matters, but if I'm not mistaken, the Jews don't see themselves as the Chosen People for this reason!

Is "this reason" for seeing oneself as a chosen people more racist than seeing oneself as a chosen people for other reasons, or less so? What is most racist, assimilation or anti-assimilation, integration or segregation? And btw where's that VW bug?

Didn't their Covenant with God go back a bit further than that?

The prelude to the Covenant with God begins in the third chapter of Genesis, and it's about the promise of the Christ, the Messiah:

"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." - Genesis 3: 14 - 15

The fulfillment of these prophesies are cited throughout the New Testament.

Who said anyone should be embarrassed about their complexion? People should be embarrassed to hear their complexion described as an indicator of their spiritual mission.

If someone with genuine spiritual insight had told me that he could see what kind of mission I had based on my complexion, why should I be embarrassed about that?

Yes. And yes - there are plenty of Christians who do not make anything mystical out of the fact that Christianity spread from Europe,

Who has made something mystical out of this, and if so, what is wrong with making something mystical out of it?

and are even ashamed of the actions of some Christians to spread Christianity from Europe.

Are they ashamed of the Gospel being spread, or are they ashamed of crimes
committed by Europeans?

It wasn't always a pretty picture, Tarjei, and it is time to get over the idea that it was a really neat mission.

Who has been talking about "really neat missions"? The Gorillas, the chimps, the rats, your cats, the Europeans or the Hebrews? What are those so-called neat missions?

Oh. It sounded like your God had something against foul-mouthed junkies.

I would think that God would pick a mother for himself who was not a foulmouthed junkie.

I thought he was supposed to be compassionate, and loving and all that.

And if you prefer a healthy body with a pure heart and soul, you're not compassionate? If you're going to heal the sick through inner forces, wouldn't it be more effective if you were born healthy and pure? What is incompassionate about that, Diana? What is remotely rational in your argumentation here?

Sorting out bodies by "suitability" for "missions" does not sound like the loving-kindess part of Christianity (which I do respect).

Isn't that what they do at NASA and in the Pentagon? Sorting out bodies by "suitability" for "missions"?

Oh. You were being sarcastic. You do think your God would scorn the foul-mouthed junkies.

Please quote me on saying that "my god" would scorn foul-mouthed junkies. What are you rambling about, Diana? You're not making sense, and you're making things up about me.

You know, the poor, ragged stranger begging for food whom you're supposed to be kind to, because he might turn out to be a saint, or even God. Down on his luck, a homeless person, maybe even a junkie, yes.

Of course God can be a beggar, but would He be a foul-mouthed one? If God is a foulmouthed junkie, God is addicted to heroin and needs co concentrate on getting his own shots, and if necessary, mug people to get the money for it, and cursing and swearing when his victims are broke. That's what junkies do. That's what you say God should do.

Again, you're not making any sense, Diana.

It's even in Grimms fairy tales, like all Waldorf children learn, no? It is in the myths of many cultures.

We're not talking about the external garb or disguise here, but about a diseased soul and body possessed by all kinds of unclean spirits. Could God be a child molester, rapist, serial killer as well in the name of compassion according to you?

I will look for one if you like. My son and I were reading some Chinese folk tales and there is more than one like that in there. The bedraggled stranger who has some small piece of wisdom to pass on, but everyone ignores him, children throw stones at him. One person gives him a crust of bread. That person is then richly rewarded by heaven.

You're obviously confusing appearances with reality here. I said nothing about a beggar. Jesus was born dirt poor in a healthy body with a pure soul.

Check out "the virgin birth" post for more info:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/418

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: holderlin66
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:39 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse

winters_diana

Joan Osborne, "What if God Was One of Us":

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

In message 1048 on this list the wonderful lyrics of Joan Osborne and Alanis Morissette were highlighted with great joy.

Take for instance "What God thinks" as a tiny fragment of a theme. As Tarjei has brought out with Dylan, we fail to turn our eyes to interesting themes. Dottie might say, God must think, oh the humble, the meek and the so on..but I was fascinated for a time with a certain song and the lyrics of a certain song that was on the charts for some time.

Alanis Morissette

"If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with him in all his glory
what would you ask if you had just one question?

Yeah, Yeah, God is great
Yeah, Yeah, God is good
Yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

If God had a face
What would it look like?
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and Jesus and the saints
and all the Prophets..."

Bradford concludes;

Most of humanity still denies and still denies... that the Gods zeroed in on the Hebrews and prepared in that incursion to drop right down to the physical plane and enter matter in order to fight for the human spirit.

Suddenly The Gods sent in their big guns. Christ is coming to a Walmart in your neighborhood. The clock on the Cosmic ticker of Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth and Job/vs/Satan had reached the lowest point in the vast cosmic curve. Ahriman and Christ are two definite standpoints. Matter, number, measure and weight were Ahriman's department. Now thinking over this grudge match or thinking about current events in solidly researched and yet vividly described thinking constructs places Spiritual Science well ahead of the contenders. For they know nothing about history, cosmology and for millions the Tigris and Euphrates remain where Adam and Eve had the Garden. I was there, I saw the Tree where tourists still arrrive to take their pictures...It is pathetic and it is also true.

The contenders have no historical, factual or intelligent way to get around certain issues. The contenders want us to swirl around issues that are favorable to Ahrimanic thought. Racism. It is agreat theme, but as in all great themes, it depends on who takes it up.

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:21 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

God being a stranger on the bus or a beggar in the street - yes. But the Savior, the Messiah being a slob? Drooling and puking on himself, in need of a change of diaphers, hitting and kicking and spitting at anyone trying to help him, calling them names that would make a whore blush?

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Mike Helsher
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse

Bradford writes:

Alanis Morissette

"If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?

Well, do you remember who portrayed God in the Movie "Dogma"??? :)

And what happened to the fallen Angels face when God spoke to him in human form? - Not a pretty picture, Reminiscent of Job's experience (Which is funny you would mention Bradford, as I just finished reading the book of Job last night, for the first time - felt unexplainably drawn to it for some reason).

Many don't like this kind of stuff - It's not nice.

But Job defiantly lives in me.

Mike

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