The Christ Impulse
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:41 am
Subject: The Christ Impulse
Hi Diana,
The apostle Paul wrote:
"For I am not ashamed
of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation
to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the
Greek." - Romans 1:16-18
Is this racist? Is this a dangerous and nutty
mission for the Jews?
The Christ Impulse, or Salvation, comes from
the Jews, who provided a physical vehicle for the Christ to incarnate
and perform His Deed on Golgotha for mankind. This Christ Impulse,
this mission of the Risen One, was then further developed among
the Europeans, who spread it to the rest of the world.
Is this also racist? Is Christianity and its
evolution through the centuries a nutty and dangerous mission
reminiscent of your redneck neighbor?
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 5:29 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse
"For I am not ashamed
of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation
to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the
Greek." - Romans 1:16-18
Is this racist? Is this a dangerous and
nutty mission for the Jews?
It is certainly not my cup of tea. It is a
little hard for me to deconstruct something based on premises
that I can't begin to relate to, but yes, when you set up schemes
for "salvation" and begin specifying who should get
there first, and how those going first should help the others
coming later, well, to me, this is not a very good plan, and
I'm not surprised if it has fanned flames of racism and encouraged
homicidal missions - as indeed the Bible has been used to justify
many, many times.
The Christ Impulse, or Salvation, comes
from the Jews, who provided a physical vehicle for the Christ
to incarnate and perform His Deed on Golgotha for mankind. This
Christ Impulse, this mission of the Risen One, was then further
developed among the Europeans, who spread it to the rest of the
world.
Yes, I find these concepts very unpalatable,
they are totally incompatible with my world view. I don't believe
in a God who picks "suitable bodies" for his purposes
and rejects other (I think I'm referring to an earlier post of
yours about God picking the Jews to get the right body for Christ,
thus explaining the "marvelous genepool" the Jews have
to contribute to humanity today). I think these ideas are disgusting,
frankly.
Is this also racist? Is Christianity and
its evolution through the centuries a nutty and dangerous mission
reminiscent of your redneck neighbor?
It has often taken this form, yes. "Christians"
today, as a general rule, are not racists, IMO. Christian missions
have certainly often been fueled by racism historically.
Diana
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:57 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse
The apostle Paul wrote:
"For I am not ashamed
of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation
to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the
Greek." - Romans 1:16-18
I wrote:
Is this racist? Is this a dangerous and
nutty mission for the Jews?
Diana wrote:
It is certainly not my cup of tea. It is
a little hard for me to deconstruct something based on premises
that I can't begin to relate to, but yes, when you set up schemes
for "salvation" and begin specifying who should get
there first, and how those going first should help the others
coming later, well, to me, this is not a very good plan, and
I'm not surprised if it has fanned flames of racism and encouraged
homicidal missions - as indeed the Bible has been used to justify
many, many times.
Tarjei:
Thank you, Diana. God is a racist then, first
by creating humanity in racial groups, then by picking one such
racial group as his "chosen people" with the mission
of hosting the Savior of humanity, and thirdly for allowing this
Christ Idea to evolve and mature through Greece and the rest
of Europe, i.e. through the so-called "white people"
before reaching the rest of humanity. I guess God is one of those
philo-Semitic anti-Semitic racists that Peter S is trying to
cram into a Volkswagen as Bradford observed. If it's a bug, you
can proceed in the same manner you would with five elephants:
Two in the front and three in the back.
Tarjei:
The Christ Impulse, or Salvation, comes
from the Jews, who provided a physical vehicle for the Christ
to incarnate and perform His Deed on Golgotha for mankind. This
Christ Impulse, this mission of the Risen One, was then further
developed among the Europeans, who spread it to the rest of the
world.
Diana:
Yes, I find these concepts very unpalatable,
they are totally incompatible with my world view. I don't believe
in a God who picks "suitable bodies" for his purposes
and rejects other (I think I'm referring to an earlier post of
yours about God picking the Jews to get the right body for Christ,
thus explaining the "marvelous genepool" the Jews have
to contribute to humanity today). I think these ideas are disgusting,
frankly.
Tarjei:
I guess God would have been less disgusting
if he had picked "unsuitable bodies" for his purposes
instead, then. The lowest common denominator, making the mother
of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the name of
equality or democracy or political correctness or something.
Tarjei:
Is this also racist? Is Christianity and
its evolution through the centuries a nutty and dangerous mission
reminiscent of your redneck neighbor?
Diana:
It has often taken this form, yes. "Christians"
today, as a general rule, are not racists, IMO.
Tarjei:
In other words, God is a racist, but many
of His followers are not, just like RS was a racist although
many anthroposophists are not?
Diana:
Christian missions have certainly often
been fueled by racism historically.
Tarjei:
Thinking of the KKK as a Christian mission?
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 12:41 pm
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse
Tarjei:
Thank you, Diana. God is a racist then,
Yawn. I'm sorry, Tarjei, I know this idea
upsets you a lot, and I sympathize, but we can't reach common
ground on it because we start from such different premises. One
more time, it is my view that people write these stories,
not God, so I don't see God winding up accused of racism in this
scenario. I don't believe in a God that sends races on different
missions.
We just start from different places. I don't
believe the stories in the Bible are all true, and I don't take
the Judeo-Christian God as a real personage with a reputation
in need of defending. You don't seem able to recognize that there
are other people who believe in other types of god/gods
or spiritual realities in which the deity does not send
races on missions. I can't get into a scriptural analysis with
you (I'm sure you know far more than I), but I do also know that
there are many Christians today who do not believe in racial
missions and would be a bit embarrassed to hear notions such
as the European/white skin "mission" to bring Christianity
to the rest of the world. Blech.
Tarjei:
I guess God would have been less disgusting
if he had picked "unsuitable bodies" for his purposes
instead, then.
I don't think God deems some bodies suitable
and others unsuitable.
The lowest common denominator, making the
mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the
name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.
Would you have a problem with that? In fact
there are many traditions and legends about God appearing in
exactly such forms. Actually I'm wondering if you in fact missed
the point of the New Testament . . . Puts me in mind of that
Joan Osborne song, "What if God was one of us . . ."
Diana
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Mar 23, 2004 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse
At 21:41 23.03.2004, Diana wrote:
Tarjei:
Thank you, Diana. God is a racist then,
Yawn. I'm sorry, Tarjei, I know this idea
upsets you a lot, and I sympathize, but we can't reach common
ground on it because we start from such different premises.
You're wrong, Diana. It does not upset me.
On the contrary, I'm pleased to see your distortions revealed.
Yawning won't get you off the hook.
One more time, it is my view that people
write these stories, not God, so I don't see God winding up accused
of racism in this scenario.
In other words, the accused is a nobody in
somebody's twisted fantasy. Again, I thank you.
I don't believe in a God that sends races
on different missions.
What kind of God do you believe in? A God
who makes races by accidental error, or who crams them into a
bug?
We just start from different places. I
don't believe the stories in the Bible are all true, and I don't
take the Judeo-Christian God as a real personage with a reputation
in need of defending.
What stories do you believe? Could you tell
us just one such story?
You don't seem able to recognize that there
are other people who believe in other types of god/gods
or spiritual realities in which the deity does not send
races on missions.
What God or type of deity are you talking
about who "doesn't send races on missions"? What religion
or mythology are you referring to here?
I can't get into a scriptural analysis
with you (I'm sure you know far more than I), but I do also know
that there are many Christians today who do not believe in racial
missions and would be a bit embarrassed to hear notions such
as the European/white skin "mission" to bring Christianity
to the rest of the world. Blech.
The Christians you're referring to, would
they be embarrassed about the mission of the Hebrews to provide
a physical body for the Christ, and about the Jews being God's
Chosen People for that reason? And these same Christians, would
they be embarrassed about Europe being a cradle for the evolution
of the church and the Christ-idea before it spread to other continents
and cultures? Thirdly, would these Christians be embarrassed
about the complexion of Europeans you keep referring to? If so,
please quote a "Christian" source of that kind, please.
Tarjei:
I guess God would have been less disgusting
if he had picked "unsuitable bodies" for his purposes
instead, then.
I don't think God deems some bodies suitable
and others unsuitable.
What do you think God does or deems then?
The lowest common denominator, making the
mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the
name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.
Would you have a problem with that?
Absolutely not, Diana. Whatever your own God
is doing or thinking, I have no problem with it whatsoever.
In fact there are many traditions and legends
about God appearing in exactly such forms.
Please tell me about one such tradition or
legend.
Actually I'm wondering if you in fact missed
the point of the New Testament . . .
Please show me what I've missed and how and
why I've missed it.
Puts me in mind of that Joan Osborne song,
"What if God was one of us . . ."
He was. Please tell me more about your
God - what He/She does and thinks and deems and so forth.
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:49 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse
[Tarjei:]
You're wrong, Diana. It does not upset
me. On the contrary, I'm pleased to see your distortions revealed.
Yawning won't get you off the hook.
It's just humorous to me to see you trying
so hard to get me to say "God is a racist." Haven't
we been round and round on this? "Off the hook"? What
am I on your hook for? Not believing in God? (Haven't I said
that a bunch of times now?)
You really think I'm a meanie, don't you?
Last week you had me planning God's funeral. But I should have
held a trial first, and condemned him to execution, on (trumped
up) charges of racism.
I'll just repeat what you replied to earlier:
One more time, it is my view that people
write these stories, not God, so I don't see God winding up accused
of racism in this scenario.
In other words, the accused is a nobody
in somebody's twisted fantasy. Again, I thank you.
You're welcome. If you feel better about this
now, that's good. As I keep pointing out, there is really no
reason to think that your god did the things you seem to think
I've, er, accused him of, or rather, not accused him of. (How
do you accuse "nobody" of something?)
What kind of God do you believe in? A God
who makes races by accidental error, or who crams them into a
bug?
I don't know what the bug thing is about at
all, something about cramming elephants into Volkswagens but
I didn't get it. I don't have an image of God that would interest
or amuse you, I'm afraid. I'm sorry. Geez, why did God make races?
I don't know. Why did God make grasshoppers, or seaweed, or rats
and bugs or why did he make my two beautiful cats? I think it
is actually rather "materialist" to assume we must
have an answer "explaining" every last blade of grass
or genus/species. I was at the zoo with some kids yesterday.
There's a lot of strange creatures God made, if you want to look
at it that way. Spent a lot of time in the monkey house, thought
of you Tarjei :) (hey – not an insult; referring to our
previous discussion about monkeys). Why did God make all those
monkeys? Why did he make so many different kinds of monkeys?
Are they all on missions?
They built a new monkey house at our zoo a
few years ago, and some of the chimps stayed one step ahead of
the planners, and kept finding ways to escape to the roof. Just
a few genes' difference, remember, between the chimps and their
human, um, caretakers.
What stories do you believe? Could you
tell us just one such story?
No. I don't respond well to demands that I
confess to faith, to "What do you believe" posed
as a challenge. (You may have noticed I don't generally respond
at all.) But if you'd like some small personal insight, I'll
say that I find comfort in the fact that even though I will not
live forever, other people will go on. I'm not comfortable insisting
(or looking for evidence) that I must come back or I must
continue in some form (in another incarnation, in Heaven, or
on some other plane, or some other planet a la Steiner). I do
find it reassuring to think that although I will not, others
will, that I am part of something bigger, just briefly.
There aren't any specific mythologies that
strike me as definitely "the truth," compared to all
the others. (There are lots of them that I think have pieces
of truth in them.) I have lots of beliefs, of course, but they
really aren't in story form the way you like them, so I can't
type them up quickly or refer you to the Sacred Text of any particular
faith like the "Michael School."
What God or type of deity are you talking
about who "doesn't send races on missions"? What religion
or mythology are you referring to here?
Amazing thought, huh, a God that doesn't send
people on racial missions?! My parents, with whom I agree on
very little theologically, believe in the Judeo-Christian God,
and they certainly don't think he sends races on missions! When
I asked them this, they found the concept shocking. The mainstream
churches would not teach anything like that today. Such beliefs
are held onto only in certain fringe groups.
The Christians you're referring to, would
they be embarrassed about the mission of the Hebrews to provide
a physical body for the Christ,
Where exactly do you find support for this,
outside of Steiner? Again, I am hardly the person to get into
a Scripture-quoting thing with, I sure don't know my Scripture.
I doubt I will ever crack Scripture again as long as I live.
Maybe the Bible says this. The Bible says many, many things I
don't live by, as you know. I do know there are many Christians
who don't take Biblical prescriptions literally, or view all
stories in the Bible as describing a literal physical reality.
They might say, for instance, that even if this was believed
among the early Christians it doesn't mean Christians today have
to take it at face value, let alone make some absurd extrapolation
from the fact that Jesus was a Jew, to the Jews today contributing
a "marvelous genepool for humanity." I mean, to me,
it is just nonsense. You could as well say God "chose"
Jesus for his, whatever, a mole on his elbow, and start saying
everyone with a mole on their elbow is on a mission.
and about the Jews being God's Chosen People
for that reason?
Excuse me, again I may well be showing my
ignorance of Biblical matters, but if I'm not mistaken, the Jews
don't see themselves as the Chosen People for this reason!
Didn't their Covenant with God go back a bit further than that?
And these same Christians, would they be
embarrassed about Europe being a cradle for the evolution of
the church and the Christ-idea before it spread to other continents
and cultures? Thirdly, would these Christians be embarrassed
about the complexion of Europeans you keep referring to? If so,
please quote a "Christian" source of that kind, please.
Who said anyone should be embarrassed about
their complexion? People should be embarrassed to hear their
complexion described as an indicator of their spiritual mission.
Yes. And yes – there are plenty of Christians who do not
make anything mystical out of the fact that Christianity spread
from Europe, and are even ashamed of the actions of some Christians
to spread Christianity from Europe. It wasn't always a pretty
picture, Tarjei, and it is time to get over the idea that it
was a really neat mission.
You wrote:
The lowest common denominator, making the
mother of God a foulmouthed junkie with a rotten liver in the
name of equality or democracy or political correctness or something.
and I asked:
Would you have a problem with that?
[Tarjei:]
Absolutely not, Diana.
Oh. It sounded like your God had something
against foul-mouthed junkies. I thought he was supposed to be
compassionate, and loving and all that. Sorting out bodies by
"suitability" for "missions" does not sound
like the loving-kindess part of Christianity (which I do respect).
Whatever your own God is doing or thinking,
I have no problem with it whatsoever.
Oh. You were being sarcastic. You do
think your God would scorn the foul-mouthed junkies.
fact there are many traditions and legends
about God appearing in exactly such forms.
Please tell me about one such tradition
or legend.
You know, the poor, ragged stranger begging
for food whom you're supposed to be kind to, because he might
turn out to be a saint, or even God. Down on his luck, a homeless
person, maybe even a junkie, yes. It's even in Grimms fairy tales,
like all Waldorf children learn, no? It is in the myths of many
cultures. I will look for one if you like. My son and I were
reading some Chinese folk tales and there is more than one like
that in there. The bedraggled stranger who has some small piece
of wisdom to pass on, but everyone ignores him, children throw
stones at him. One person gives him a crust of bread. That person
is then richly rewarded by heaven.
Actually I'm wondering if you in fact missed
the point of the New Testament . . .
Please show me what I've missed and how
and why I've missed it.
Okay: compassion, tolerance, loving kindness,
refraining from judgment. All the stuff Dottie is talking about,
about the prostitutes. Loving the sinners. A rather different
mindset from judging the "suitability of bodies." "Faith,
hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love."
Puts me in mind of that Joan Osborne song,
"What if God was one of us . . ."
He was. Please tell me more about your
God - what He/She does and thinks and deems and so forth.
Quit taunting me. It isn't spiritual. God
wouldn't like it.
Diana
...................................................................................................................................
From: winters_diana
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:56 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse
Here, you asked:
Please tell me about one such tradition
or legend.
(God appearing in lowly form, perhaps even
as someone who doesn't have a marvelous genepool):
Joan Osborne, "What if
God Was One of Us":
What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei
Straume
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:32 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse
At 14:49 24.03.2004, Diana wrote:
It's just humorous to me to see you trying
so hard to get me to say "God is a racist." Haven't
we been round and round on this? "Off the hook"? What
am I on your hook for? Not believing in God?
No Diana. Most of my best friends are atheists
and agnostics and don't believe in God. You're on the hook for
distorting, misrepresenting, and falsifying Rudolf Steiner's
concepts, and while you're at it, distorting, misrepresenting,
and falsifying the concepts of those who take Steiner seriously,
whether or not they call themselves anthroposophists.
(Haven't I said that a bunch of times now?)
You've been distorting Steiner a bunch of
times, yes.
You really think I'm a meanie, don't you?
I don't know what you are, because I don't
understand what you mean when you say you're here because you
want to learn more about Anthroposophy in order to understand
it when it's obviously "not your cup of tea."
Last week you had me planning God's funeral.
No I didn't. I only thought Nietzsche might
be more your cup of tea than Steiner, so I recommended "Thus
Spake Zarathustra".
But I should have held a trial first, and
condemned him to execution, on (trumped up) charges of racism.
Who has been talking about executing God?
Are you talking about the Sanhedrin and the Roman soldiers here
or what?
I don't know what the bug thing is about
at all, something about cramming elephants into Volkswagens but
I didn't get it.
You didn't get it? Didn't you just say that
Bradford is a guru who solves all the mysteries? Bradford has
solved the Mystery of the Volkswagen, the anti-Semites, and Peter
Staudenmaier's racial mission. How could you miss that when you
said Bradford was a guru who solved everything?
I don't have an image of God that would
interest or amuse you, I'm afraid.
It doesn't matter. Just tell us how you believe
the universe came into existence and how biological life began.
What do you think about Darwin's research and about Goethe's
contribution to the Missing Link?
I'm sorry. Geez, why did God make races?
I don't know. Why did God make grasshoppers, or seaweed, or rats
and bugs or why did he make my two beautiful cats? I think it
is actually rather "materialist" to assume we must
have an answer "explaining" every last blade of grass
or genus/species.
I'm not going to discuss the definition of
materialism with you, but assuming that there is a God who made
grasshoppers and rats and bugs and cats, he wouldn't give them
any missions I understand. They woulon't have any tasks or functions.
I was at the zoo with some kids yesterday.
There's a lot of strange creatures God made, if you want to look
at it that way. Spent a lot of time in the monkey house, thought
of you Tarjei :) (hey – not an insult; referring to our
previous discussion about monkeys). Why did God make all those
monkeys? Why did he make so many different kinds of monkeys?
Are they all on missions?
Gorillas an chimps and so on? No I guess they
wouldn't be on any missions or have any functions either. I wonder
what all this fuss is about rescuing endangered species when
there's no point in having them around in the first place.
No. I don't respond well to demands that
I confess to faith, to "What do you believe"
posed as a challenge. (You may have noticed I don't generally
respond at all.) But if you'd like some small personal insight,
I'll say that I find comfort in the fact that even though I will
not live forever, other people will go on.
Other people will live forever?
I'm not comfortable insisting (or looking
for evidence) that I must come back or I must continue
in some form (in another incarnation, in Heaven, or on some other
plane, or some other planet a la Steiner). I do find it reassuring
to think that although I will not, others will, that I am part
of something bigger, just briefly.
So others will reincarnate, but you don't
want to be a part of it. Is your loathing of Anthroposophy based
upon fear of higher powers forcing you into a cycle of reincarnations?
There aren't any specific mythologies that
strike me as definitely "the truth," compared to all
the others. (There are lots of them that I think have pieces
of truth in them.) I have lots of beliefs, of course, but they
really aren't in story form the way you like them, so I can't
type them up quickly or refer you to the Sacred Text of any particular
faith like the "Michael School."
Doesn't matter. Just go on about your many
beliefs. UFO's, Star Trek, the Rapture, life in distant galaxies,
alien monsters in black holes or whatever. Let's have it.
Amazing thought, huh, a God that doesn't
send people on racial missions?!
OK. God does not send races on missions, and
he does not send people on racial missions. What's the difference
between these types of missions btw?
My parents, with whom I agree on very little
theologically, believe in the Judeo-Christian God, and they certainly
don't think he sends races on missions! When I asked them this,
they found the concept shocking.
Interesting. I wonder how you phrased the
question. When you talk about God sending people on racial missions
or sending races on missions, it sounds like Star Trek, its Five
Year Mission. Perhaps peoples have had missions at home, where
they were living.
The mainstream churches would not teach
anything like that today. Such beliefs are held onto only in
certain fringe groups.
I see. So the mainstream churches do not
believe that the Hebrews received a special mission from Yahve
through Abraham and Melchisidek and Moses - a mission promising
the arrival of a Messiah? Only "certain fringe groups"
believe that?
"For thou art an holy
people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee
to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are
upon the face of the earth." - Deuteronomy
7:6
The Christians you're referring to, would
they be embarrassed about the mission of the Hebrews to provide
a physical body for the Christ,
Where exactly do you find support for this,
outside of Steiner?
It's in the Bible.
Again, I am hardly the person to get into
a Scripture-quoting thing with, I sure don't know my Scripture.
I doubt I will ever crack Scripture again as long as I live.
Maybe the Bible says this. The Bible says many, many things I
don't live by, as you know. I do know there are many Christians
who don't take Biblical prescriptions literally, or view all
stories in the Bible as describing a literal physical reality.
They might say, for instance, that even if this was believed
among the early Christians it doesn't mean Christians today have
to take it at face value, let alone make some absurd extrapolation
from the fact that Jesus was a Jew, to the Jews today contributing
a "marvelous genepool for humanity." I mean, to me,
it is just nonsense.
Of course it is. According to your line of
reasoning, Mary mother of Jesus might as well have been a foulmouthed
junkie with a rotten liver; that would have made God "one
of us" like he's supposed to be.
You could as well say God "chose"
Jesus for his, whatever, a mole on his elbow, and start saying
everyone with a mole on their elbow is on a mission.
Whatever......
Excuse me, again I may well be showing
my ignorance of Biblical matters, but if I'm not mistaken, the
Jews don't see themselves as the Chosen People for this
reason!
Is "this reason" for seeing oneself
as a chosen people more racist than seeing oneself as a chosen
people for other reasons, or less so? What is most racist, assimilation
or anti-assimilation, integration or segregation? And btw where's
that VW bug?
Didn't their Covenant with God go back
a bit further than that?
The prelude to the Covenant with God begins
in the third chapter of Genesis, and it's about the promise of
the Christ, the Messiah:
"And the LORD God said
unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed
above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy
belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of
thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and
between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and
thou shalt bruise his heel." - Genesis
3: 14 - 15
The fulfillment of these prophesies are cited
throughout the New Testament.
Who said anyone should be embarrassed about
their complexion? People should be embarrassed to hear their
complexion described as an indicator of their spiritual mission.
If someone with genuine spiritual insight
had told me that he could see what kind of mission I had based
on my complexion, why should I be embarrassed about that?
Yes. And yes - there are plenty of Christians
who do not make anything mystical out of the fact that Christianity
spread from Europe,
Who has made something mystical out of this,
and if so, what is wrong with making something mystical out of
it?
and are even ashamed of the actions of
some Christians to spread Christianity from Europe.
Are they ashamed of the Gospel being spread,
or are they ashamed of crimes
committed by Europeans?
It wasn't always a pretty picture, Tarjei,
and it is time to get over the idea that it was a really neat
mission.
Who has been talking about "really neat
missions"? The Gorillas, the chimps, the rats, your cats,
the Europeans or the Hebrews? What are those so-called neat missions?
Oh. It sounded like your God had something
against foul-mouthed junkies.
I would think that God would pick a mother
for himself who was not a foulmouthed junkie.
I thought he was supposed to be compassionate,
and loving and all that.
And if you prefer a healthy body with a pure
heart and soul, you're not compassionate? If you're going to
heal the sick through inner forces, wouldn't it be more effective
if you were born healthy and pure? What is incompassionate about
that, Diana? What is remotely rational in your argumentation
here?
Sorting out bodies by "suitability"
for "missions" does not sound like the loving-kindess
part of Christianity (which I do respect).
Isn't that what they do at NASA and in the
Pentagon? Sorting out bodies by "suitability" for "missions"?
Oh. You were being sarcastic. You do
think your God would scorn the foul-mouthed junkies.
Please quote me on saying that "my god"
would scorn foul-mouthed junkies. What are you rambling about,
Diana? You're not making sense, and you're making things up about
me.
You know, the poor, ragged stranger begging
for food whom you're supposed to be kind to, because he might
turn out to be a saint, or even God. Down on his luck, a homeless
person, maybe even a junkie, yes.
Of course God can be a beggar, but would He
be a foul-mouthed one? If God is a foulmouthed junkie, God is
addicted to heroin and needs co concentrate on getting his own
shots, and if necessary, mug people to get the money for it,
and cursing and swearing when his victims are broke. That's what
junkies do. That's what you say God should do.
Again, you're not making any sense, Diana.
It's even in Grimms fairy tales, like all
Waldorf children learn, no? It is in the myths of many cultures.
We're not talking about the external garb
or disguise here, but about a diseased soul and body possessed
by all kinds of unclean spirits. Could God be a child molester,
rapist, serial killer as well in the name of compassion according
to you?
I will look for one if you like. My son
and I were reading some Chinese folk tales and there is more
than one like that in there. The bedraggled stranger who has
some small piece of wisdom to pass on, but everyone ignores him,
children throw stones at him. One person gives him a crust of
bread. That person is then richly rewarded by heaven.
You're obviously confusing appearances with
reality here. I said nothing about a beggar. Jesus was born dirt
poor in a healthy body with a pure soul.
Check out "the
virgin birth" post for more info:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/anthroposophy_tomorrow/message/418
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: holderlin66
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:39 am
Subject: Re: The Christ Impulse
winters_diana
Joan Osborne, "What
if God Was One of Us":
What if God was one of
us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
In message 1048 on this list the wonderful
lyrics of Joan Osborne and Alanis Morissette were highlighted
with great joy.
Take for instance "What God thinks"
as a tiny fragment of a theme. As Tarjei has brought out with
Dylan, we fail to turn our eyes to interesting themes. Dottie
might say, God must think, oh the humble, the meek and the so
on..but I was fascinated for a time with a certain song and the
lyrics of a certain song that was on the charts for some time.
Alanis Morissette
"If God had a name what
would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with him in all his glory
what would you ask if you had just one question?
Yeah, Yeah, God is great
Yeah, Yeah, God is good
Yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah
What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
If God had a face
What would it look like?
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that you would have to believe
In things like heaven and Jesus and the saints
and all the Prophets..."
Bradford concludes;
Most of humanity still denies and still denies...
that the Gods zeroed in on the Hebrews and prepared in that incursion
to drop right down to the physical plane and enter matter in
order to fight for the human spirit.
Suddenly The Gods sent in their big guns.
Christ is coming to a Walmart in your neighborhood. The clock
on the Cosmic ticker of Saturn, Sun, Moon, Earth and Job/vs/Satan
had reached the lowest point in the vast cosmic curve. Ahriman
and Christ are two definite standpoints. Matter, number, measure
and weight were Ahriman's department. Now thinking over this
grudge match or thinking about current events in solidly researched
and yet vividly described thinking constructs places Spiritual
Science well ahead of the contenders. For they know nothing about
history, cosmology and for millions the Tigris and Euphrates
remain where Adam and Eve had the Garden. I was there, I saw
the Tree where tourists still arrrive to take their pictures...It
is pathetic and it is also true.
The contenders have no historical, factual
or intelligent way to get around certain issues. The contenders
want us to swirl around issues that are favorable to Ahrimanic
thought. Racism. It is agreat theme, but as in all great themes,
it depends on who takes it up.
...................................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:21 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse
What if God was one of
us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home
God being a stranger on the bus or a beggar
in the street - yes. But the Savior, the Messiah being a slob?
Drooling and puking on himself, in need of a change of diaphers,
hitting and kicking and spitting at anyone trying to help him,
calling them names that would make a whore blush?
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
...................................................................................................................................
From: Mike Helsher
Date: Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:46 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: The Christ Impulse
Bradford writes:
Alanis Morissette
"If God had a name
what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
Well, do you remember who portrayed God in
the Movie "Dogma"??? :)
And what happened to the fallen Angels face
when God spoke to him in human form? - Not a pretty picture,
Reminiscent of Job's experience (Which is funny you would mention
Bradford, as I just finished reading the book of Job last night,
for the first time - felt unexplainably drawn to it for some
reason).
Many don't like this kind of stuff - It's
not nice.
But Job defiantly lives in me.
Mike
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