Angeles
From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:26 am
Subject: Angeles
Hi Everyone,
I have been thinking about the whole overview
of the Iraqi and Americas relationship. And this brought me to
the ideas of various Angels and groups of whole peoples being
guided by a particular Angel. I am wondering if anyone has any
quotes or thoughts on this issue from Dr. Steiner. It seems one
can not be sure exactly but I do not even have a clue from whence
to begin contemplating such a thing.
Thanks,
Dottie
..........................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
At 20:26 21.11.2003, Dottie wrote:
I have been thinking about the whole overview
of the Iraqi and Americas relationship. And this brought me to
the ideas of various Angels and groups of whole peoples being
guided by a particular Angel. I am wondering if anyone has any
quotes or thoughts on this issue from Dr. Steiner. It seems one
can not be sure exactly but I do not even have a clue from whence
to begin contemplating such a thing.
The Beings who guide nations and ethnic groups
are the Archangels. The Angels guide individuals, meaning that
everyone has a "Guardian Angel." The Archai stand one
rank higher than the Archangels, and to these belong the Time
Spirits. Archangels are somehow promoted to Archai when chosen
to serve as Time Spirits, like in the case with Michael, who
was the Archangel of the Hebrews in pre-Christian times and has
been the Time Spirit of humanity since 1979, when he replaced
Gabriel. The curious thing is that RS also refers to other Time
Spirits as Archangels rather than Archai. So when he speaks about
Archangels being the regents of time periods, what happened to
the Archai? Can anybody explain this?
Here is a piece from Lecture Six (Dornach
10 December 1924) in "The Book of Revelation and the Work
of the Priest" (GA 346):
Looking back to the time when
the Mystery of Golgotha took place on the earth we find, with
regard to the spiritual evolution of human beings, the archangelic
regency of Oriphiel, that archangel who receives his impulses
predominantly from the forces of Saturn. After this we come to
an age when Anael was the reigning archangel, then to the age
of Zachariel, then to the age of Raphael, then to that of Samael,
then Gabriel, and then to the present age of Michael. We have
a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh age,
so that with regard to this smaller cycle within our larger fifth
cycle we are in the seventh age. We are living in an age we would
have to describe as follows if we were to use today's way of
formulating things: We are living in the age of five/seven, the
fifth post-Atlantean cultural age, the fifth larger cycle of
human evolution, and - with regard to a smaller cycle of the
ages of archangelic regency - we are living in the seventh age,
which interweaves with the larger one.
A seventh age, dear friends,
signifies an end stage. The age we are now in was preceded by
the sixth, that of Gabriel. In a sixth age a great many things
are decided, and preparations are made for the end. But the age
prior to it also still works into that sixth age. The Michael
age began around 1979, the Gabriel age around 1471. Before that
was the age of Samael, the archangel who receives his impulses
from Mars; that was the fifth age.
The point in time when the
fifth post-Atlantean cultural age began occurred during the age
when the archangel of the fifth shorter age was regent. During
the fifth archangelic regency, that archangel had already been
preparing the onset of the fifth post-Atlantean cultural age
for three to four centuries. So being already in progress, the
smaller age coincided with the beginning of the larger age. This
signifies nothing less than that the larger ages are prepared
by spirits of the middle hierarchy. The third hierarchy, to which
the archangels belong, are the serving members of of the higher
hierarchies. The law of numbers thus brings it about that at
the beginning of the fifth age the fifth archangel coincides
at the height of his smaller age with a higher being from a higher
hierarchy who is also in the number five.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
..........................................................................................................................
From: Dag Horntvedt
Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:13 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
-----Original Message-----
From: dottie zold [mailto:dottie_z@yahoo.com]
Sent: 21. november 2003 20:26
To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
Dottie wrote: Hi Everyone,
I have been thinking about the whole overview
of the Iraqi and Americas relationship. And this brought me to
the ideas of various Angels and groups of whole peoples being
guided by a particular Angel. I am wondering if anyone has any
quotes or thoughts on this issue from Dr. Steiner. It seems one
can not be sure exactly but I do not even have a clue from whence
to begin contemplating such a thing.
[Dag:] Rudolf Steiner held a lecture cycle
in Berlin: the 11th. Lecture: 1908-06-01; The Influence of Spiritual
Beings on Man GA 102 where he says something like: (I have translated
this from German just now, so be aware it is far from perfect
- I could not find the lecture in e-lib or any other place):
If we go back thousands and
thousands of years we will find that the human being was a being
which belonged to a group soul. The development of the human
being is a development from the group soul to the individual
soul. More and more the human being developed further when the
ego-gifted soul forced its way into the physical. In the physical
the soul have a possibility to become individuality.
The human race has now come
to a point where not only custom and tradition is individual,
but also meanings and confessions. It is already people among
us which think that it is a high ideal that every human being
has its own religion. People are even thinking: there will come
a time when there will be as many religions as there are people.
The human race will not take
this path of development. It will take this path if it would
continue the impulse which we today can find in the materialism.
This would lead to disharmony and split the human race into segregated
individuals. This way of development can only be avoided by the
absorbing of spiritual science. What will happen? The great truth
and lawfulness will show itself: The most individual truths which
one can find in the most heartfelt way are at the same time the
most common truths........
.............. The human being
has grown out of the group soul. More and more it is liberating
itself from it. If we look upon groups instead of souls then
we have families, tribes, nations and at last a feeling of belonging
to a race. The race corresponds to a group soul. Human beings
will grow out of these ancient groups. And the further we develop
the more the concept of the race will loose its meaning. Today
we stand at a threshold and slowly what is race will disappear
and something else will take its place......
.............The human being
will be born into different communities, people and race. Later
we will be living in community with people out of our own choosing
and we will be connected through different points of view. People
will create communities and at the same time look after their
own freedom and individuality.........
..........One must try to
make communities where people will find together without the
old differentiation in group souls. There will be many communities
like this in the future. Then we will not speak of races. Then
we will speak of communities created out of intellectual, ethic
and moral points of view.
When human beings voluntary
let their feelings stream together there will be created something
which reaches beyond the mere liberated human being. The liberated
human being has its individual soul. This will never be lost
having once been acquired. But when human beings find together
in voluntary communities they will group around centre points.
Feelings that in this way will stream together to a centre, will
again give beings the opportunity to work as a kind of group
souls, but they will have quite a different task than the old
group souls. All the old group souls were beings which made the
human being unfree. But these new beings make it possible for
them to unite with the completely free and individual human being.
Yes, one is allowed to say that the existence of these beings
in a certain way depends on the common agreement among the human
beings. It will depend on the human souls if they can give as
many as possible such higher being the possibility to come down
or not. The more human beings segregates the less higher beings
will come down to the realm of the human beings. The more it
is created communities, the more in full freedom it will be created
a feeling of community, the more higher beings will come down
to the human beings and the faster the earth will be spiritualised.
Dag: What I gather from this is that in a
not to distant future In f.inst. the Norwegian ethnic group of
people the colour of the skin or anything connected to the inherited
part of us will be of no relevance or even interest. Within the
Norwegians there will be communities of people finding together
out of interest in a common tasks or vision. (This sounds a bit
like anarchy does it Tarjei?). The big task of the individual
is to be interested in other human being, so that we can come
together out of common ideas and visions and thereby create new
communities.
What we see today is communities getting strength
from fighting a common enemy. There is a tragedy when a nation
or people feel like the chosen ones. I can't imagine one culture
or nation surviving this feeling: We are the best and have the
answers; therefore we must “help” others to be like
us. This will certainly lead to the downfall of said nation.
I think history has and will prove me right in this. Or?
Dag
..........................................................................................................................
From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:49 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
Dag you wrote:
I can't imagine one culture or nation surviving this feeling:
We are the best and have the answers; therefore we must "help"
others to be like us. This will certainly lead to the downfall
of said nation. I think history has and will prove me right in
this. Or?
Hi Dag,
It's funny because this is what I believe
America is facing right now with the Bush administration. It
feels like the fall of Rome to me yet something appears to me
as a deeping of the human race through this experience. And I
can't put my mind to it which leads me to wonder about the Arch
Angeles guiding each nation or region. Who are they?
In reading Esoteric Christianity this week
I was a bit surprised that Dr. Steiner states how things will
continue to get better spiritually until the end when humanity
will face a great crisis. From reading this it seems like another
almost Christ like experience will occur that will lead man to
its next revelation on an inward journey. It seems to be about
the time of Jeshu Ben Padera(sp)
So, today it feels like we are right where
we are supposed to be. But why would that be? What is being wrought
out of this situation between Islam and Christianity that lends
to a deepening of our spirits as a collective?
Love to you,
Dottie
..........................................................................................................................
From: Dag Horntvedt
Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:30 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
-----Original Message-----
From: dottie zold [mailto:dottie_z@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23. november 2003 05:49
Dottie wrote
So, today it feels like we are right where we are supposed
to be. But why would that be? What is being wrought out of this
situation between Islam and Christianity that lends to a deepening
of our spirits as a collective?
[Dag:] Hi Dottie
I think that in every crisis there is a germ
of something new. I do not really know what is meant to be wrought
out of the situation today. But the feeling you are expressing
in saying: "so, today it feels like we are right where we
are supposed to be" I think is very good. We so often have
the tendency to get a kind of longing for a disaster when something
(the world situation f.inst.) looks chaotic and bad. When I think
back on all the uncertainty and expectations around the turn
of the millennium I wonder if this also was a hinder for something
new. The deepening of our spirits as a collective can only be
rooted on the individual work by each on of us through the old
saying "Man know thy self".
Yours
Dag
..........................................................................................................................
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:47 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
At 22:13 22.11.2003, Dag wrote:
What I gather from this is that in a not
to distant future In f.inst. the Norwegian ethnic group of people
the colour of the skin or anything connected to the inherited
part of us will be of no relevance or even interest. Within the
Norwegians there will be communities of people finding together
out of interest in a common tasks or vision.
Exactly. This is a crucial point in Anthroposophy
emphasized throughout Steiner's works that the "hardcore
critics" - i.e. the smearers and slanderers who are not
worthy of being called "critics" at all - refuse to
recognize. They insist upon sticking to their guns by alleging
relentlessly that Anthroposophy is "racist to the core."
What should be added to your translated quote
and your comment, is that Rudolf Steiner regarded the preservation
of ethnic groups through "in-breeding" as a hindrance
to the evolution of the consciousness soul and the subsequent
self-dependence and autonomy of the individual through a fully
developed power of thought.
Nowhere is Rudolf Steiner's endorsement of
racial intermarriage clearer than in a passage about the wedding
in Cana, where Christ performed his first 'sign', described in
The Gospel of St. John And Its Relation to the Other Gospels
("Das Johannes-Evangelium im Verhaltnis zu den drei anderen
Evangelien, besonders zu dem Lukas-Evangelium", GA 112),
lecture IX:
As has been said, the deeper
significance of the miracles we shall learn in due time; but
here we can ask, for example, why, precisely in the first of
the signs [John 2:1-11] it is especially emphasized in dealing
with the marriage in Cana of Galilee that this took place in
Cana "of Galilee." Seek as you will, you can find in
old Palestine within the radius then known no second Cana; and
in such a case it would seem superfluous to specify the locality.
Why, then, does the Evangelist tell us that this miracle occurred
in Cana "of Galilee"? Because the important point to
be stressed was that something occurred which had to take place
in Galilee. It means that nowhere else but in Galilee could Christ
have found just those people whose presence was indispensable.
As I said, an influence implies not only the one who exerts it,
but the others as well who are appropriately fitted to receive
it. Christ's first appearance would not have been possible within
the Jewish community proper, but it was possible in Galilee with
its mixture of many different tribes and groups. Just because
members of so many peoples from various parts of the world were
assembled in one spot, there was far less blood relationship,
and above all, far less faith in it, than in Judea, in the narrow
cirlce of the Hebrew people. Galilee was a heterogeneous racial
mixture.
But what was it to which Christ,
in view of His impulse, felt Himself particularly called? We
have said that one of His most significant utterances was, 'Before
Abraham was, was the I am'; and the other, 'I and the Father
are one'. By this He meant: among those who cling to the old
forms of life, the ego is entrenched in a system of blood relationships.
(................................................)
For this purpose, He had to
turn to those who, owing to their mixed blood, no longer clung
to this old belief: to the Galileans. That is where His mission
had to commence. Even though the old state of consciousness was
gradually on the wane, still He found in Galilee a medley of
peoples that stood at the beginning of the era in which blood
became mixed. From all quarters tribes assembled here that had
previously been governed solely by the forces of the old blood
ties. They were on the point of finding the transition.
(................................................)
Such were the people to whom
Christ turned, people who had just arrived at the point of understanding
this, people who, having broken away from the blood ties by intermarriage,
needed to find the strong force - not in consanguinity, but in
the individual soul, the force that can lead man gradually to
express the spiritual in the physical.
(................................................)
It was in Galilee that the
ancient blood ties were severed, that mutually alien bloods came
to mingle. Now, Christ's task was intimately connected with this
mixing of blood. So, we are here dealing with a union having
the object of creating progeny among people who are no longer
related by blood.
Steiner then proceeds with an explanation
of the new wine that he introduces at this wedding in Cana. The
old wine was connected with the magical force engendered by tribal
intermarriage, whereby ancient clairvoyance flowed through the
blood from the ancestors. With this in mind (this is me speaking
at this point), the following words by Christ assume a special
significance, I think:
Neither do men put new wine
into old bottles: else the bottles break, and
the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new
wine into
new bottles, and both are preserved. -
Matthew 9:17
(This sounds a bit like anarchy does it
Tarjei?).
Sounds like a trick question :) - but seriously,
I don't really know what "anarchy" is supposed to be.
I can only echo Ben Tucker's argument, namely if you reject hierarchy
(imposed by human beings upon other human beings) and "archy",
you're left with one alternative: Anarchy.
But no, Dag, I don't think that the establishment
of new breeds or races or social classes based upon common interests
and pursuits equals anarchy in any form, nor Threefolding for
that matter. Common interests and pursuits create breeds like
cops, military men, judges etc. Closed circles consisting of
individuals seeking power over their fellow men in various ways.
these people also become races (regardless of how ethnically
mixed and varied they may be) even to the point of resembling
one another physically. Remember the closing words of George
Orwell's "Animal Farm," where "All animals are
equal, but some animals are more equal than others." -
No question, now, what had
happened to the faces of the pigs. The
creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig,
and from pig
to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was
which.
And so it is with the future, when man no
longer can conceal what he bears in his soul. There will be new
groups or "races" based upon people's inner lives,
and the pigs will also be among us. And as long as there are
pigs, anarchy is exceedingly difficult.
The big task of the individual is to be
interested in other human being, so that we can come together
out of common ideas and visions and thereby create new communities.
What we see today is communities getting strength from fighting
a common enemy.
That is the strategy of governments, of the
Establishment: To prevent its own demise or dissolution or erosion
by projecting the fear and hatred among the people against a
specific external target, just like in Orwell's "Nineteen
eighty-four."
There is a tragedy when a nation or people
feel like the chosen ones. I can't imagine one culture or nation
surviving this feeling: We are the best and have the answers;
therefore we must "help" others to be like us. This
will certainly lead to the downfall of said nation. I think history
has and will prove me right in this. Or?
All nations are headed for downfall. The nation-states
of today are no more immortal than were the city-states of Ur
and Babylon. And many of the mechanisms for wielding power used
by governments or nation-states, like the courts, the prisons,
the legal tender (currency) and how it is produced, managed and
manipulated - all these things are being severely challenged
by new ideas coming out of the universities throughout the world,
and the Old World Order (that has NEVER been a "new"
world order) has outlived much of its purpose and has existed
intact for too long.
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
..........................................................................................................................
From: Dag Horntvedt
Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:07 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles
Tarjei wrote:
(This sounds a bit like anarchy does it
Tarjei?).
Sounds like a trick question :)
[Dag:] Was not meant to be :-)
- but seriously, I don't really know what
"anarchy" is supposed to be. I can only echo Ben Tucker's
argument, namely if you reject hierarchy (imposed by human beings
upon other human beings) and "archy", you're left with
one alternative: Anarchy.
But no, Dag, I don't think that the establishment of new breeds
or races or social classes based upon common interests and pursuits
equals anarchy in any form, nor Threefolding for that matter.
Common interests and pursuits create breeds like cops, military
men, judges etc. Closed circles consisting of individuals seeking
power over their fellow men in various ways. these people also
become races (regardless of how ethnically mixed and varied they
may be) even to the point of resembling one another physically.
Remember the closing words of George Orwell's "Animal Farm,"
where "All animals are equal, but some animals are more
equal than others." -
[Dag:] I can't see why this is bond to happen
just because people find together in communities. Perhaps in
communities where the ideal is to follow leaders, but we don't
want that do we? And if somebody wants it, let them... But the
question is how we are able to link with other communities. And
here the threefold social system can play a part?
And so it is with the future, when man no longer can conceal
what he bears in his soul. There will be new groups or "races"
based upon people's inner lives, and the pigs will also be among
us. And as long as there are pigs, anarchy is exceedingly difficult.
[Dag:] Let the pigs find together. They also
have a right to live. I just don't want them to force me to be
like them.
All nations are headed for downfall. The
nation-states of today are no more immortal than were the city-states
of Ur and Babylon. And many of the mechanisms for wielding power
used by governments or nation-states, like the courts, the prisons,
the legal tender (currency) and how it is produced, managed and
manipulated - all these things are being severely challenged
by new ideas coming out of the universities throughout the world,
and the Old World Order (that has NEVER been a "new"
world order) has outlived much of its purpose and has existed
intact for too long.
[Dag:] The danger is that a longing for a
"new" world order and thereby a kind of "world-peace"
is so strong that a kind of world-state is looked upon as a blessing.
I think that this wish for a world-state is spooking in the back
of many politicians and religious leaders' heads today.
Dag
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