Angeles

From: dottie zold
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:26 am
Subject: Angeles

Hi Everyone,

I have been thinking about the whole overview of the Iraqi and Americas relationship. And this brought me to the ideas of various Angels and groups of whole peoples being guided by a particular Angel. I am wondering if anyone has any quotes or thoughts on this issue from Dr. Steiner. It seems one can not be sure exactly but I do not even have a clue from whence to begin contemplating such a thing.

Thanks,

Dottie

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:59 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

At 20:26 21.11.2003, Dottie wrote:

I have been thinking about the whole overview of the Iraqi and Americas relationship. And this brought me to the ideas of various Angels and groups of whole peoples being guided by a particular Angel. I am wondering if anyone has any quotes or thoughts on this issue from Dr. Steiner. It seems one can not be sure exactly but I do not even have a clue from whence to begin contemplating such a thing.

The Beings who guide nations and ethnic groups are the Archangels. The Angels guide individuals, meaning that everyone has a "Guardian Angel." The Archai stand one rank higher than the Archangels, and to these belong the Time Spirits. Archangels are somehow promoted to Archai when chosen to serve as Time Spirits, like in the case with Michael, who was the Archangel of the Hebrews in pre-Christian times and has been the Time Spirit of humanity since 1979, when he replaced Gabriel. The curious thing is that RS also refers to other Time Spirits as Archangels rather than Archai. So when he speaks about Archangels being the regents of time periods, what happened to the Archai? Can anybody explain this?

Here is a piece from Lecture Six (Dornach 10 December 1924) in "The Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest" (GA 346):

Looking back to the time when the Mystery of Golgotha took place on the earth we find, with regard to the spiritual evolution of human beings, the archangelic regency of Oriphiel, that archangel who receives his impulses predominantly from the forces of Saturn. After this we come to an age when Anael was the reigning archangel, then to the age of Zachariel, then to the age of Raphael, then to that of Samael, then Gabriel, and then to the present age of Michael. We have a first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh age, so that with regard to this smaller cycle within our larger fifth cycle we are in the seventh age. We are living in an age we would have to describe as follows if we were to use today's way of formulating things: We are living in the age of five/seven, the fifth post-Atlantean cultural age, the fifth larger cycle of human evolution, and - with regard to a smaller cycle of the ages of archangelic regency - we are living in the seventh age, which interweaves with the larger one.

A seventh age, dear friends, signifies an end stage. The age we are now in was preceded by the sixth, that of Gabriel. In a sixth age a great many things are decided, and preparations are made for the end. But the age prior to it also still works into that sixth age. The Michael age began around 1979, the Gabriel age around 1471. Before that was the age of Samael, the archangel who receives his impulses from Mars; that was the fifth age.

The point in time when the fifth post-Atlantean cultural age began occurred during the age when the archangel of the fifth shorter age was regent. During the fifth archangelic regency, that archangel had already been preparing the onset of the fifth post-Atlantean cultural age for three to four centuries. So being already in progress, the smaller age coincided with the beginning of the larger age. This signifies nothing less than that the larger ages are prepared by spirits of the middle hierarchy. The third hierarchy, to which the archangels belong, are the serving members of of the higher hierarchies. The law of numbers thus brings it about that at the beginning of the fifth age the fifth archangel coincides at the height of his smaller age with a higher being from a higher hierarchy who is also in the number five.

Cheers,

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Dag Horntvedt
Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:13 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

-----Original Message-----

From: dottie zold [mailto:dottie_z@yahoo.com]

Sent: 21. november 2003 20:26

To: anthroposophy_tomorrow@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

Dottie wrote: Hi Everyone,

I have been thinking about the whole overview of the Iraqi and Americas relationship. And this brought me to the ideas of various Angels and groups of whole peoples being guided by a particular Angel. I am wondering if anyone has any quotes or thoughts on this issue from Dr. Steiner. It seems one can not be sure exactly but I do not even have a clue from whence to begin contemplating such a thing.

[Dag:] Rudolf Steiner held a lecture cycle in Berlin: the 11th. Lecture: 1908-06-01; The Influence of Spiritual Beings on Man GA 102 where he says something like: (I have translated this from German just now, so be aware it is far from perfect - I could not find the lecture in e-lib or any other place):

If we go back thousands and thousands of years we will find that the human being was a being which belonged to a group soul. The development of the human being is a development from the group soul to the individual soul. More and more the human being developed further when the ego-gifted soul forced its way into the physical. In the physical the soul have a possibility to become individuality.

The human race has now come to a point where not only custom and tradition is individual, but also meanings and confessions. It is already people among us which think that it is a high ideal that every human being has its own religion. People are even thinking: there will come a time when there will be as many religions as there are people.

The human race will not take this path of development. It will take this path if it would continue the impulse which we today can find in the materialism. This would lead to disharmony and split the human race into segregated individuals. This way of development can only be avoided by the absorbing of spiritual science. What will happen? The great truth and lawfulness will show itself: The most individual truths which one can find in the most heartfelt way are at the same time the most common truths........

.............. The human being has grown out of the group soul. More and more it is liberating itself from it. If we look upon groups instead of souls then we have families, tribes, nations and at last a feeling of belonging to a race. The race corresponds to a group soul. Human beings will grow out of these ancient groups. And the further we develop the more the concept of the race will loose its meaning. Today we stand at a threshold and slowly what is race will disappear and something else will take its place......

.............The human being will be born into different communities, people and race. Later we will be living in community with people out of our own choosing and we will be connected through different points of view. People will create communities and at the same time look after their own freedom and individuality.........

..........One must try to make communities where people will find together without the old differentiation in group souls. There will be many communities like this in the future. Then we will not speak of races. Then we will speak of communities created out of intellectual, ethic and moral points of view.

When human beings voluntary let their feelings stream together there will be created something which reaches beyond the mere liberated human being. The liberated human being has its individual soul. This will never be lost having once been acquired. But when human beings find together in voluntary communities they will group around centre points. Feelings that in this way will stream together to a centre, will again give beings the opportunity to work as a kind of group souls, but they will have quite a different task than the old group souls. All the old group souls were beings which made the human being unfree. But these new beings make it possible for them to unite with the completely free and individual human being. Yes, one is allowed to say that the existence of these beings in a certain way depends on the common agreement among the human beings. It will depend on the human souls if they can give as many as possible such higher being the possibility to come down or not. The more human beings segregates the less higher beings will come down to the realm of the human beings. The more it is created communities, the more in full freedom it will be created a feeling of community, the more higher beings will come down to the human beings and the faster the earth will be spiritualised.

Dag: What I gather from this is that in a not to distant future In f.inst. the Norwegian ethnic group of people the colour of the skin or anything connected to the inherited part of us will be of no relevance or even interest. Within the Norwegians there will be communities of people finding together out of interest in a common tasks or vision. (This sounds a bit like anarchy does it Tarjei?). The big task of the individual is to be interested in other human being, so that we can come together out of common ideas and visions and thereby create new communities.

What we see today is communities getting strength from fighting a common enemy. There is a tragedy when a nation or people feel like the chosen ones. I can't imagine one culture or nation surviving this feeling: We are the best and have the answers; therefore we must “help” others to be like us. This will certainly lead to the downfall of said nation. I think history has and will prove me right in this. Or?

Dag

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From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:49 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

Dag you wrote:
I can't imagine one culture or nation surviving this feeling: We are the best and have the answers; therefore we must "help" others to be like us. This will certainly lead to the downfall of said nation. I think history has and will prove me right in this. Or?

Hi Dag,

It's funny because this is what I believe America is facing right now with the Bush administration. It feels like the fall of Rome to me yet something appears to me as a deeping of the human race through this experience. And I can't put my mind to it which leads me to wonder about the Arch Angeles guiding each nation or region. Who are they?

In reading Esoteric Christianity this week I was a bit surprised that Dr. Steiner states how things will continue to get better spiritually until the end when humanity will face a great crisis. From reading this it seems like another almost Christ like experience will occur that will lead man to its next revelation on an inward journey. It seems to be about the time of Jeshu Ben Padera(sp)

So, today it feels like we are right where we are supposed to be. But why would that be? What is being wrought out of this situation between Islam and Christianity that lends to a deepening of our spirits as a collective?

Love to you,

Dottie

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From: Dag Horntvedt
Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:30 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

-----Original Message-----
From: dottie zold [mailto:dottie_z@yahoo.com]
Sent: 23. november 2003 05:49

Dottie wrote
So, today it feels like we are right where we are supposed to be. But why would that be? What is being wrought out of this situation between Islam and Christianity that lends to a deepening of our spirits as a collective?

[Dag:] Hi Dottie

I think that in every crisis there is a germ of something new. I do not really know what is meant to be wrought out of the situation today. But the feeling you are expressing in saying: "so, today it feels like we are right where we are supposed to be" I think is very good. We so often have the tendency to get a kind of longing for a disaster when something (the world situation f.inst.) looks chaotic and bad. When I think back on all the uncertainty and expectations around the turn of the millennium I wonder if this also was a hinder for something new. The deepening of our spirits as a collective can only be rooted on the individual work by each on of us through the old saying "Man know thy self".

Yours
Dag

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From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:47 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

At 22:13 22.11.2003, Dag wrote:

What I gather from this is that in a not to distant future In f.inst. the Norwegian ethnic group of people the colour of the skin or anything connected to the inherited part of us will be of no relevance or even interest. Within the Norwegians there will be communities of people finding together out of interest in a common tasks or vision.

Exactly. This is a crucial point in Anthroposophy emphasized throughout Steiner's works that the "hardcore critics" - i.e. the smearers and slanderers who are not worthy of being called "critics" at all - refuse to recognize. They insist upon sticking to their guns by alleging relentlessly that Anthroposophy is "racist to the core."

What should be added to your translated quote and your comment, is that Rudolf Steiner regarded the preservation of ethnic groups through "in-breeding" as a hindrance to the evolution of the consciousness soul and the subsequent self-dependence and autonomy of the individual through a fully developed power of thought.

Nowhere is Rudolf Steiner's endorsement of racial intermarriage clearer than in a passage about the wedding in Cana, where Christ performed his first 'sign', described in The Gospel of St. John And Its Relation to the Other Gospels ("Das Johannes-Evangelium im Verhaltnis zu den drei anderen Evangelien, besonders zu dem Lukas-Evangelium", GA 112), lecture IX:

As has been said, the deeper significance of the miracles we shall learn in due time; but here we can ask, for example, why, precisely in the first of the signs [John 2:1-11] it is especially emphasized in dealing with the marriage in Cana of Galilee that this took place in Cana "of Galilee." Seek as you will, you can find in old Palestine within the radius then known no second Cana; and in such a case it would seem superfluous to specify the locality. Why, then, does the Evangelist tell us that this miracle occurred in Cana "of Galilee"? Because the important point to be stressed was that something occurred which had to take place in Galilee. It means that nowhere else but in Galilee could Christ have found just those people whose presence was indispensable. As I said, an influence implies not only the one who exerts it, but the others as well who are appropriately fitted to receive it. Christ's first appearance would not have been possible within the Jewish community proper, but it was possible in Galilee with its mixture of many different tribes and groups. Just because members of so many peoples from various parts of the world were assembled in one spot, there was far less blood relationship, and above all, far less faith in it, than in Judea, in the narrow cirlce of the Hebrew people. Galilee was a heterogeneous racial mixture.

But what was it to which Christ, in view of His impulse, felt Himself particularly called? We have said that one of His most significant utterances was, 'Before Abraham was, was the I am'; and the other, 'I and the Father are one'. By this He meant: among those who cling to the old forms of life, the ego is entrenched in a system of blood relationships.

(................................................)

For this purpose, He had to turn to those who, owing to their mixed blood, no longer clung to this old belief: to the Galileans. That is where His mission had to commence. Even though the old state of consciousness was gradually on the wane, still He found in Galilee a medley of peoples that stood at the beginning of the era in which blood became mixed. From all quarters tribes assembled here that had previously been governed solely by the forces of the old blood ties. They were on the point of finding the transition.

(................................................)

Such were the people to whom Christ turned, people who had just arrived at the point of understanding this, people who, having broken away from the blood ties by intermarriage, needed to find the strong force - not in consanguinity, but in the individual soul, the force that can lead man gradually to express the spiritual in the physical.

(................................................)

It was in Galilee that the ancient blood ties were severed, that mutually alien bloods came to mingle. Now, Christ's task was intimately connected with this mixing of blood. So, we are here dealing with a union having the object of creating progeny among people who are no longer related by blood.

Steiner then proceeds with an explanation of the new wine that he introduces at this wedding in Cana. The old wine was connected with the magical force engendered by tribal intermarriage, whereby ancient clairvoyance flowed through the blood from the ancestors. With this in mind (this is me speaking at this point), the following words by Christ assume a special significance, I think:

Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and
the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into
new bottles, and both are preserved.
- Matthew 9:17

(This sounds a bit like anarchy does it Tarjei?).

Sounds like a trick question :) - but seriously, I don't really know what "anarchy" is supposed to be. I can only echo Ben Tucker's argument, namely if you reject hierarchy (imposed by human beings upon other human beings) and "archy", you're left with one alternative: Anarchy.

But no, Dag, I don't think that the establishment of new breeds or races or social classes based upon common interests and pursuits equals anarchy in any form, nor Threefolding for that matter. Common interests and pursuits create breeds like cops, military men, judges etc. Closed circles consisting of individuals seeking power over their fellow men in various ways. these people also become races (regardless of how ethnically mixed and varied they may be) even to the point of resembling one another physically. Remember the closing words of George Orwell's "Animal Farm," where "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." -

No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The
creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig
to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

And so it is with the future, when man no longer can conceal what he bears in his soul. There will be new groups or "races" based upon people's inner lives, and the pigs will also be among us. And as long as there are pigs, anarchy is exceedingly difficult.

The big task of the individual is to be interested in other human being, so that we can come together out of common ideas and visions and thereby create new communities. What we see today is communities getting strength from fighting a common enemy.

That is the strategy of governments, of the Establishment: To prevent its own demise or dissolution or erosion by projecting the fear and hatred among the people against a specific external target, just like in Orwell's "Nineteen eighty-four."

There is a tragedy when a nation or people feel like the chosen ones. I can't imagine one culture or nation surviving this feeling: We are the best and have the answers; therefore we must "help" others to be like us. This will certainly lead to the downfall of said nation. I think history has and will prove me right in this. Or?

All nations are headed for downfall. The nation-states of today are no more immortal than were the city-states of Ur and Babylon. And many of the mechanisms for wielding power used by governments or nation-states, like the courts, the prisons, the legal tender (currency) and how it is produced, managed and manipulated - all these things are being severely challenged by new ideas coming out of the universities throughout the world, and the Old World Order (that has NEVER been a "new" world order) has outlived much of its purpose and has existed intact for too long.

Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/

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From: Dag Horntvedt
Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:07 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Angeles

Tarjei wrote:

(This sounds a bit like anarchy does it Tarjei?).

Sounds like a trick question :)

[Dag:] Was not meant to be :-)

- but seriously, I don't really know what "anarchy" is supposed to be. I can only echo Ben Tucker's argument, namely if you reject hierarchy (imposed by human beings upon other human beings) and "archy", you're left with one alternative: Anarchy.

But no, Dag, I don't think that the establishment of new breeds or races or social classes based upon common interests and pursuits equals anarchy in any form, nor Threefolding for that matter. Common interests and pursuits create breeds like cops, military men, judges etc. Closed circles consisting of individuals seeking power over their fellow men in various ways. these people also become races (regardless of how ethnically mixed and varied they may be) even to the point of resembling one another physically. Remember the closing words of George Orwell's "Animal Farm," where "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." -

[Dag:] I can't see why this is bond to happen just because people find together in communities. Perhaps in communities where the ideal is to follow leaders, but we don't want that do we? And if somebody wants it, let them... But the question is how we are able to link with other communities. And here the threefold social system can play a part?

And so it is with the future, when man no longer can conceal what he bears in his soul. There will be new groups or "races" based upon people's inner lives, and the pigs will also be among us. And as long as there are pigs, anarchy is exceedingly difficult.

[Dag:] Let the pigs find together. They also have a right to live. I just don't want them to force me to be like them.

All nations are headed for downfall. The nation-states of today are no more immortal than were the city-states of Ur and Babylon. And many of the mechanisms for wielding power used by governments or nation-states, like the courts, the prisons, the legal tender (currency) and how it is produced, managed and manipulated - all these things are being severely challenged by new ideas coming out of the universities throughout the world, and the Old World Order (that has NEVER been a "new" world order) has outlived much of its purpose and has existed intact for too long.

[Dag:] The danger is that a longing for a "new" world order and thereby a kind of "world-peace" is so strong that a kind of world-state is looked upon as a blessing. I think that this wish for a world-state is spooking in the back of many politicians and religious leaders' heads today.

Dag

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