Occult Lodges and Islam
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Tue Nov 4, 2003 2:55 am
Subject: occult lodges and islam
I've made a clumsy shot at writing a little
bit about Islam and the occult lodges of the West: http://www.uncletaz.com/seclodg.html
My knowledge of Islam itself is very limited;
I am trying to follow the public debates. We're talking about
a billion Muslims, and a religion I'm beginning to consider with
an apprehension not dissimilar to what I associate with scientology,
although the systems don't have much in common theologically
or philosophically (except, perhaps, a common denominator in
the Jesuit order, also found in Nazism - the key concepts being
blind obedience and unconditional surrender). But what is very
interesting is that the warriors, or terrorists, who may be sitting
at the restaurant table next to you in any European city and
you wouldn't have a clue, explain that the difference between
"us" and "them" is that "we" love
life, but "they" love death, and their highest goal
is to die for Allah and thus get into his Paradise. So we have
Christians, Agnostics, Buddhists, Atheists etc., i.e. non-Muslims,
on the one side, who love life, and the true believers of Islam
on the other, who love death and plan to die in battle against
the infidels: The world for Islam.
When I wrote this about six months ago, Al
Qaida had just announced Norway as a target along with the United
States, the United Kingdom, and Australia, with attacks soon-to-come.
What is interesting is that Norway was the only non-English-speaking
nation thus targeted, probably because of its close ties to the
United States. According to Rudolf Steiner, the connection between
Norway and the Western hemisphere was established as early as
the third or fourth century AD - anyway, long before Leiv Eriksson's
famous arrival in the year 1000.
Anyway, the article related to Islam is very
brief. The other article, which is about the Western lodges,
is something I wrote in 1996 or '97, based upon "The Challenge
of the Times", lecture III: "The Mechanistic, Eugenic,
and Hygienic Aspects of the Future" (December 1, 1918, GA
186). When translating these articles, that were first written
in Norwegian, into English, I blended them into one article at
the URL above.
The link between this lecture and current
events is apparent from a quote that I'll give you below. In
the lecture at hand, Steiner describes how the secret lodges
of the English-speaking polulations of the West strive to manipulate
the occult evolution of humanity by stealing the latent capacities
of the Eastern peoples and at the same time by making sure that
such occult capacities among Eastern peoples are thwarted. There
is little doubt, if we take Steiner's words about initiates and
secret lodges in earnest, that such lodges and their initiates
are involved in the present explosive drama between Islam and
the West, with Israel in the middle. And I have considered the
idea that Eastern lodges may be invloved, thus launching an assault
against the dominant position of the Western powers. But on the
other hand, this doesn't make sense, because antipathy and hatred
against the West among the Eastern peoples acts as a hindrance
for their evolution, and the Eastern lodges would logically be
striving for the opposite: the hindrance of Western occult progress
to the benefit of the East. For this reason, it is most probably
the Western lodges that are the architects of Islamic hatred
and extremism. I believe this is sensed subconsciously by the
Eastern peoples, which is why they blame Israel and the West
even for the WTC attack, although Eastern Muslims were sitting
in the very cockpits! They sense that the West is to blame for
it all, but the West doesn't know about their very own secret
lodges.
And now for the real fire, from RS himself:
For example, in the case of
the people of the Central countries and the Eastern lands it
is an important hindrance to the evolution of these capacities,
especially their evolution in a knowing way, when strong antipathies
against the people of the Western countries are active within
them. Then these things cannot be viewed objectively. This is
a hindrance in the evolution of these capacities. But the potentiality
of developing another occult capacity is also even strenghtened
in a certain way if it is developed out of a certain instinct
of hatred. This is a strange phenomenon. We often ask ourselves,
and we are dealing here with something that must be considered
quite objectively, why such senseless abuse has been practiced
in the Western countries. This also comes out of the instinct
leading toward these capacities. For what constitutes the profoundest
impelling forces in Western occultism is fostered by nothing
more powerfully than by the development of feelings that are
untrue but are sensed as in some way holy, and that can represent
the people of the East and especially those of the Central countries
as barbarians. the potentialities of material occultism, for
example, are fostered by the attitude of mine constituting the
so-called crusading temperament in America. This consists in
the feeling that America is called to spread over the whole earth
freedom and justice and I know not what other beautiful things.
Of course, the people there believe that. What I am saying here
has nothing to do with fault finding. The people believe that
they are engaged in a crusade, but this belief in something false
constitutes a support working in a certain direction. If a person
should consciously make an untrue statement, he would not have
this support. For this reason, what is now happening is tremendously
helpful on the one side and a hindrance on the other in the development
of those capacities that we must assert to be still latent at
the present time in the case of most individuals who bear within
themselves the will toward evolution in the future and are destined
to influence profoundly the social structure of humanity.
Although this was said more than eighty years
ago, it is not outdated if we take into consideration that we're
talking about a kind of occult conspiracy whose aims and purposes
reach 1500 to 2000 years into the future.
I have received some very healthy and informative
criticism with regard to the article in question. The Steiner-quotes
do get longer and longer, and eventually the author (myself)
essentially disappear. It may easily be felt that when these
words by RS are quoted almost a hundred years later, they cannot
stand for themselves. If Steiner is talking about something real,
it must in some way be corroboratable.
So there's a question of where we can find
literature that corroborates Steiner's claims about such occult
lodges of the West.
So here are two books:
Quigley, Carroll. The Anglo-American Establishment.
New York: Books in Focus, 1981. 354 pages. Carroll Quigley (1910-1977)
taught history at Georgetown's School of Foreign Service since
1941. This book was written in 1949 and covers the Rhodes-Milner
Round Table Groups, a secret Oxford-related cabal that had tremendous
influence in British foreign policy from the time that Cecil
Rhodes began funding it at the turn of the century. In 1919 the
Council on Foreign Relations became the American branch of the
Round Table. Quigley is better known for "Tragedy and Hope"
(1966), which reaffirms his earlier suspicions (he says he had
access to the Round Table's secret archives), but lacks the rich
detail of the earlier work. Quigley basically agreed with the
goals of these high-minded internationalists, but disliked their
inherited wealth and power, their methods, and particularly their
secrecy. Quigley became a darling of the anti-internationalist
Right in the U.S., from Cleon Skousen (The Naked Capitalist,
1970) through Pat Robertson (The New World Order, 1991). Then
to top it off, Bill Clinton mentioned Quigley as his mentor in
his nomination acceptance speech on July 16, 1992. Clinton studied
under Quigley at Georgetown in the middle 1960s, and then became
a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. Now he's a member of CFR, Trilateral
Commission, and Bilderberg, and many of his appointees are from
the same Rhodes-CFR-Trilateral circles. We don't know what this
means, if anything. ISBN 0-916728-50-1 (from http://www.namebase.org/sources/TA.html)
Here is a synopsis of the book:
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/quigley.html
Then there are the books by Sutton:
http://skull-and-bones-books.com/americas_secret_establishment/about_the_book.html
(The link to Membership of Yale's Skull and
Bones Society does not work, the correct link is http://www.angelfire.com/az2/TruthPage/boneslist.html).
Sutton is a weird guy. He hates Hegel and
the rest of German idealistic philosophy, for example. He comes
close to being an anarchist ("The state is a fiction sanctified
by Hegel and his followers to CONTROL the individual" http://www.freedomdomain.com/secretsocieties/suttoninterview.html).
He once wrote a book for the Hoover Institute. Not exactly a
neutral historian! But he published a lot of interesting documents
and asked a lot of interesting and tabu questions (like why the
US financed the Soviet Union .. and Hitler).
The subject is difficult, because there is
almost no real historical scholarship except for a few weird
outsiders. In that sense they have remained secret! We have to
piece it together ourselves.
It is not being claimed that the ilk of Cecil
Rhodes and his cohorts may have been initiates. But who inspires
such circles? These are the circles that truly wield the power.
Behind them stand spiritual forces (and other circles) that work
directly into these circles.
Some of this stuff appears reminiscient of
the background for the movie "Skulls", but both part
1 and part 2 miss the main point.
George Bush Sr. was a member of such a group
in his youth, and so were many other former presidents, who had
similar affiliations. They get to them when their young and malleable.
That's why it starts there. Remember the "new world order"?
This is not something invented by Bush.
Incidentally, someone just sent me a link
to a webpage that may deserve a closer look:
http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Nov 5, 2003 8:03 pm
Subject: Re: occult lodges and islam
Dear Tarjei,
I believe what we are facing in Iraq is a
bringing/melting together of the Christic principles for the
future of Cosmic/Human Evolution. I believe it is the spiritual
worlds push for religious peoples of the world to look past Jesus
and Mohammed, to the Godhead of whence we came whither we go.
Islamists are being pummelled with relevant
questions regarding their man made laws according to what they
percieve as the 'real' message of the Prophet. (especially because
they believe that theirs does stray from the original interpretation
and Christianity's many interpretations do and therefore it's
man inspired not God inspired) These conversations were not happening
on the level that it is now. People may have been converting
or what have you but the question of 'what do these words mean'
did not occur to the Islamist community as a whole.
Christians are being forced to look on a people
who are not afraid to die. We have to question, why is that?
They know why we don't want to die but we really don't have an
answer for the question of why they aren't afraid. And I am not
just talking about terrorists here, we're talking about a whole
population. They have a sweet tooth for God in a way that we
Westerners do not.
We, the so called Christic community, I believe,
are actually the ones teaching them the culture of destruction.
Almost as if the craving for dying as you state is brought down
upon their heads by the people who are fighting to live. Funny
way we serve each other isn't it?
In my opinion it is Islam that truly validates
Jesus' message of Love through, in and of, Sophia. I believe
this is what the message of Mohammed really proclaims for those
who have eyes to see and ears to hear. I think we were finding
ourselves completely stuck in Patriarchy at this point, and a
turning one in that, which is to me what Jesus proclaimed would
happen: paps that can not be sucked and wombs that could not
bear would claim themselves as the All and the sole intercessors.(
the idea of treating the Bishops word as if it was Gods Himself
comments from early church leaders)Can you imagine, as if God
Himself:(
It seems to me that mostly people look at
the message of the Prophet as a literal one. It is not. And if
there were truly any Christians who wish to pierce the veil to
bridge the gap of understanding, they would look to the Qoran
(sp). Just as Christianity has most of its messages veiled so
does Islam.
Do you know the names of Mohammed's wife or
those of his two daughters. The wifes name corresponds with the
same name given to Magdalene the Magificent:) and of course early
Egyptian, and Buddist female spiritual leaders/beings: Holy One,.
The names of the two daughters who also facilitated his ascent
to the seven Heavens are Faith, and unfortunately I can not remember
the other at this moment. However my point is that it was these
three women who nurtured his journey and it was through them
he was able to ascend. It was his daughter Fatima who opened
the door to the Angel Gabriel. And it was in a similar manner
for Jesus although different circumstances.
Just as in Christianity the women have been
downplayed, so has it been so for Islam. But a re-emergence is
happening. And I believe it is through these two groups of people
that the world will propel itself to a higher spiritual understanding.
And then we shall partake of Manna / Sophia (my personal understanding)
In conversations with my Muslim co-worker
we seem to be finding an underlining feminine aspect to Islam
that neither of us suspected. We forget to go further to the
spiritual aspect of what these two men were pointing to: Godhead/Unity/Allah/One
and who is the one who is ever present: ChristSophia. Reminds
me of a thought I had: Sophia of the past, Christ of the Future:
One and the same, Alpha y Omega...
My friend Makram asked me to speak before
a group of his friends. We kind of talk the same kind of heart
language with a will to know/invite God. We both stand in a bit
of awe of how we will be percieved within all of our human limitations/sins
and so forth before Allah. Yet we both tremble with a want and
fear to move forward. Standing at attention while trembling,
knowing that we have faltered many times and may many times more
is excruciating. He fears that even with my little words and
soft way of saying them will be met with arrows but we are going
to try and have a discussion group at our local coffee shop.
Islam is beautiful and will be empowered even
further I believe through this interaction with the West. I believe
Christians will be humbled. Almost as if there is a pact for
the spirit to win the mind versus the mind winning the spirit.
My thoughts on Islam,
Dottie
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 12:37 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 05:03 06.11.2003, Dottie wrote:
Dear Tarjei,
I believe what we are facing in Iraq is a bringing/melting together
of the Christic principles for the future of Cosmic/Human Evolution.
I thought that would be the case of the Slavic
peoples, the Russians.
I believe it is the spiritual worlds push
for religious peoples of the world to look past Jesus and Mohammed,
to the Godhead of whence we came whither we go.
The way I see it, St. Michael, or Christ-Michael
(the archai leading humanity since he replaced Gabriel in 1879)
is pushing for religious peoples to abandon Old Age religions
altogether. Such religions belong to a bygone era, which means
that they are being taken over by ahrimanic forces. Religion
based primarily or exclusively upon revelations of old and upon
old scriptures about such, pursue the principle of unconditional
surrender to an external authority, which is antithetical to
the principle of self-dependence and the autonomy of the individual
found in the PoF. RS said somewhere that the PoF is Christ's
message to humanity today: The message of individual freedom.
<snip>
In my opinion it is Islam that truly validates
Jesus' message of Love through, in and of, Sophia. I believe
this is what the message of Mohammed really proclaims for those
who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Frankly, I must disagree with this rather
strongly. Muslims are threatened with execution or assassination
for the "crime" of converting to another religion (like
Christianity or Buddhism, or atheism for that matter). Mohammed
was a highway robber and a very violent man with plenty of blood
on his hands. According to RS, his revelation was genuine, but
remember it came from Gabriel, and following a violent religion
from the age of Gabriel with such tenacity and mass conformity
in our day and age is not healthy. None of this reminds me of
Jesus' message of Love, and especially not of what the spiritual
world wishes to communicate to humanity today.
<snip>
It seems to me that mostly people look
at the message of the Prophet as a literal one. It is not. And
if there were truly any Christians who wish to pierce the veil
to bridge the gap of understanding, they would look to the Qoran
(sp). Just as Christianity has most of its messages veiled so
does Islam.
The Sufi tradition perhaps. Are you familiar
with it?
<snip>
Islam is beautiful and will be empowered
even further I believe through this interaction with the West.
I believe Christians will be humbled. Almost as if there is a
pact for the spirit to win the mind versus the mind winning the
spirit.
It would be nice if you are right about it.
Frankly, I hope so, but I'm not convinced. I find it difficult
to discern any Islamic movement that is not spellbound by the
ethos and outlook of the Old Testament on the one hand, and blind
obedience on the other. A very destructive combination. I have
never heard a believing Muslim speaking on behalf of his/her
religion utter a single self-dependent, autonomous idea about
spiritual matters. It's always what the Koran says and what it
doesn't say. Whatever you think _must_ be supported by some verse
from that book. Look how destructive this kind of "scriptural"
fundamentalism has become in the West. All the unspeakable miscief
from the CIA and the Pentagon is being fuelled by the fears and
vindictiveness that lives and thrives in the Religious Right,
the Christian Coalition and so on. If it were up to me, I would
send all the Christian fundies and the nutty Muslims out to an
island where they could slug it out among themselves. They deserve
each other. They're of the same ilk.
Here's an appropriate RS lecture: "Specters
of the Old Testament in the Nationalism of the Present"
- Dornach December 7, 1918 (Die Soziale Grundforderung unserer
Zeit, GA 186).
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: golden3000997
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:33 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Hello Everyone,
I tried to send a (somewhat lengthy) introduction
when I signed up for this group, but it disappeared when I hit
the send button. At some point, I will try again. In the meantime,
I would like to jump into this discussion about Islam. I hear
over and over again so many platitudes about Islam being a beautiful
religion. Well, after 911 I decided to see for myself and I downloaded
most of the Koran and started to read it. I haven't read it through
and I can't say 100% that it is what I think it is, but my impression
so far is that it is a mish-mash of old testament stories combined
with the kind of hell and brimstone stuff that would make a Southern
Baptist pale in comparison. There is no forgiveness, no flexibility.
Everything is totally black and white, us and them, heaven and hell. No possiblility of interpretation
or redemption.
And even if that were not enough, one must
have a critical eye toward any religion in its practice as well
as its theory. There is nothing of love or understanding or forgiveness
in any of its practices, either. There is only power and oppression,
and I mean particularly to its own people, especially women.
Of course, the same can certainly be said
about Christianity in practice throughout the ages. I am embarrassed
to consider myself any kind of Christian, even though I am, because
it puts me on such a wicked team. No one was right in the Crusades.
Everyone was out for power. And all power ploys involve gaining
the support of the masses through emotional indoctrination.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the lady who
called Sophia of the past and the Christ of the Future. It is
God the Father who is of the eternal past, the ground of being
from which all eminates. Christ is of the now. He lives in every
breath and every heartbeat. The Sophia is the
Holy Spirit, the "female" of the Trinity - she is the
force of transformation, an impulse which can only come
from the future. There can be no change without
an archetype of that change coming from the future.
I am as afraid of the "Christians"
as I am of the "Moslems" and the "Jews".
I am afraid of any people who identify themselves with a religious
belief system that comes with laws and a singular path to God.
When Christ said "I AM the Way and the Truth and the Light,
no one comes to the Father except through Me." He was referring
to the "I AM" of which he was at the time a physical
embodiment. After His Death and Resurrection, the "I AM"
was fully incarnated into the individual human being through
the transformative power of Mary at the first Pentecost. It was
through Her incarnation of the Holy Spirit that the true
"I AM" came into the people in the
upper room (Men & Women) and from there began to spread to
all of humanity. This spreading was not through the proselytizing,
preaching and converting that the disciples did, but rather,
as a homeopathic remedy, from their mere
presence in the human community.
Just as Christ's blood flowed from the cross
into the Earth body, acting as a homeopathic remedy for the fatal
illness the Earth was infected with (see the Fifth Gospel), the
presence of human beings carrying the flame of the Holy Spirit
was enough to heal the body, soul and spirit of all who they
touched. These people then went out and healed all who they had
contact with.
The process which then began to manifest itself
as a "church" after the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem
was an early Arhimanic imitation of this healing process. Come
to us and we will absolve your sins and fit you for heaven became
a slogan for the power elite. Mohammed just adapted it to fit
the sons of Ishmael. Both of these power structures are in place
and thriving and both seek to keep individual human beings from
experiencing the reality of the Etheric Christ who manifests
in every moment, in every heartbeat.
This "war" is not about Christianity
and Islam or Judaism and Islam or Christianity and Judaism or
any other combination. They are all the same in their manifestation
as power structures. And the true powers of this earth reside
in none of them. The true powers of the earth just use them as
emotional tools to gather masses of humanity and enslave them
to their purpose. The conflict itself is of that purpose. To
believe anyone right or wrong in what you see and hear over the
media is a fool's game. There are sources of the truth still,
although for how long, we have to wonder.
To hear Anthroposophists back General Boykin
(?) is just as bad as saying that the Crusades were "holy
wars". Of course they were not holy. Nothing associated
with fear is holy. Spiritually necessary? I don't think so. Although
an initiate may look back on any event (even the incarnation
of Hitler) and see some positive long range spiritual energies
set in motion as sort of a back lash effect,
one has to take a moment and say "But did it REALLY have
to be that way?" "Could mankind have done it differently
and achieved the same or even a better effect?"
What would this country be like today if we
had met the native populations in the same spirit that they,
for the most part, met us? What if European man had come only
searching for freedom and new experiences of life, rather than
gold and slaves (Columbus' expressed intentions and no other!)
I refuse to believe that Columbus was an initiate, and if he
really was, then I do not want to be associated with any initiate!
What WOULD this country today be like if we
hadn't committed unimaginable terrorism on millions of unsuspecting
human beings, if the very ground beneath our feet was not still
running with psychic blood? What kind of "New World"
would we have found?? Utopia? Maybe not, but something far better
than what we live with now.
Rudolf Steiner was a revolutionary. He was
a political revolutionary who put together the most radical approach
to social order that exists yet on this planet. And he placed
it on the table in front of Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson
at the Treaty of Versailles. And he stated afterward that the
fact that it was not adopted as the right solution to the world's
conflicts of 1918/1919 was proof that mankind was not spiritually,
mentally and even physically ready for the Threefold Social Order.
Then he brought forward Waldorf Education as a revolutionary
act, a subversive act - it has the express intention of making
at least a homeopathic element of society ready for the Threefold
Social Order. To say otherwise is a lie. Many Waldorf schools,
teachers and promoters are liars and I will say that to their
faces. The time for politely hiding the truth from the parents
and even teachers who come to them and to deny that what they
are doing may be very dangerous in the future is a real crime.
Does that mean that Waldorf schools shouldn't
exist? Of course not - they must exist as long as the powers
of this earth decide to allow it (which may not be much longer). But the work should be done in the
clear light of day. Everyone should understand the real WAR that
is raging around us as we sit in our comfortable houses with
food on our tables. By the time we go to stand in line for our
chips and bar codes that will allow us to keep paying our mortgage
and buying our groceries, we should be prepared to recognize
it as just the sense-perceptible result of the supersensible
battle going on right now.
YOU may not believe that you are personally
affected yet. But people all around you are being rounded up
and killed right now in the name of the "holy" the
"good" the "American way of life." YOU will
be next. You will succumb or die, one way or another. You can
succumb to the truth and die physically, or can succumb to the
powers of this earth and die spiritually. You have the choice
to make. It is the ONLY choice that you will have to make in
the days to come.
I apologize for the ranting, but this talk
of "little words in "soft voices" so that we can
all see how lovely each other's religions are makes me sick.
Dottie, please don't take this personally - YOU don't make me
sick - I know that you are well intentioned
and desiring above all else to work for love and make a difference
and this is completely valid on a one to one, interpersonal basis.
But it won't do in the larger arena. "Love" will heal
us but it won't shield us. We must have Truth also. "Love"
didn't keep Christ off the cross - it put
Him there!
Understand this. We must see "face to
face" and not "as children" as Paul said (sorry
for the truncation). Humanity is no longer in its infancy, when
it was expected to follow its leaders unquestioning as a young
child does its parents, right or wrong. It is no longer in its
childhood or teens. We have come
far along the way toward being able to discover
ourselves as individuals. I believe that we have reached 21 and
we must understand that from here on out we will be expected
to act out of our Egos and to bear the full weight of responsibility
for each and every one of our thoughts, words and deeds. We can
no more take refuge in ignorance or common habit. We can't say
"Well, he did it first." We will be punished for breaking
the spiritual laws just as surely as we will
be arrested for killing someone while driving drunk. But "God"
won't punish us - "Allah" won't
punish us - "Yaweh" won't punish us - we will punish
ourselves. We will just find the instant karma come boomeranging
back on us and know that we were the ones who threw the stick
in the first place.
Wake up sleepers, awake! The time is at hand
and we cannot rest in dreams. Follow the trail of truth on the
internet while it is still there to see. I will post links to important sites. We can not stop Ahriman's
incarnation - it has already happened. But we can look him in
the eye just before we die and say "I KNOW who you are -
you cannot fool me! At least one human being knows who you really
are." It's not much, but it is on this that the world hangs
in the balance.
With love and hope,
Christine
To Walk on Water
I want to learn, in time, to walk on water.
My faith, constantly being put to the test
Fails me most often, tossed on the waves
Of our reasonable and unholy age.
It is not true that we are never given
More than our souls can grasp
Or rise above. We often sink beneath
The thunderous waves of unforeseen misfortunes.
The broken masts wash ashore each day
And wreckage is a common sight along
These beaches; yet in the silence of grey
Morning fog, I stalwartly lift my sail again.
I cannot swim well, and fear the creatures
Of the deep, unknown and hideous companions
Who are with me always, even unto the end of time,
And for whom I am responsible.
White mountains on a farther shore are calling
me.
The day is clear but windy, cold and rough.
I'll try again to reach the distant courses
Where hope and faith fail not in winter's measures.
For thought I sink and break upon the waters-
Denied the saving angel's last minute solace;
Life has not yet overturned for me the truth
That someday we shall learn to walk on water.
Christine Natale 2000 all rights reserved
New World Center
How deep the grave to hold
Our world which has grown old
With countless lives untold
Earth, cloven to the core
Reveals the precious ore
Those gone forevermore
So fill the grave with tears
Our hopes, our dreams, our fears
The memories of lost years
Let living waters rise
And fill the void inside
Renewing hope and pride
And from the water's deep
Arising from death's sleep
All those for whom we weep
Together we will see
What we are meant to be
When all the world is free
A new world shining bright
Alive with freedom's might
True love and wisdom's light
Christine Natale 2000 all rights reserved
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dottie zold
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 6:44 pm
Subject: Re: occult lodges and islam
Hi Christine,
I am just beginning to read the Koran and
Sufi works and books on Muhammeds life. The first thing that
struck me is how it was not sharing a thing it was telling me
a thing. And it appears to me that the mysteries, at least of
the version I have been reading, have been been depleted to such
an extent I find my self reading a book six and seven year old
readers can read. It reminds me of how I feel about the 'new
Bibles' appearing on the market today. And again, what is most
disturbing is that the mystery is disappearing from the written
word. In a sense we are making God in mans image, imo.
I want to share a poem from a book I am reading
called Women of Sufism.
I am a fountain, You are my water.
I flow from You to You.
I am an eye, You are my light,
I look from You to You.
You are neither my right nor my left,.
You are my foot and my arm as well.
I am a traveler, You are my road.
I go from You to You.
Zeynep Hatun
The mystic/spirit followers of the Koran and
of the Torah as well as our Christian bible all seem to have
a thing in common. How can they not, this goes back at least
6000 years.
In regards to Sophia being the Future She
is also the past in my understanding. I can trace her to Magdalene,
Shekinah, to Bet Kol, and Quan Yin. She is found from the earliest
times. I am not sure what you mean that Her archtype can not
be found in the past. Why would that be if it were true?
Christine
And even if that were not enough, one must have a critical
eye toward any religion in its practice as well as its theory.
There is nothing of love or understanding or forgiveness in any
of its practices, either. There is only power and oppression,
and I mean particularly to its own people, especially women.
Dottie
I am wondering what you read that states these
kinds of things in such a factual way? Or is this your personal
experience with this group of people? I must say I am having
the exact opposite experience personal as well in my reading
selection.
My personal experience is that I have never
found a people who love God more and I can feel it from their
heart like from no other peoples as a whole. My friend Makram
is shocked about the things we are discovering by questioning
'what' the words mean. Most of these things have to do with the
Feminine Aspect because that is mostly where my search for answers
took me. I could find certain things pertaining to Sophia in
the Bible, Torah but I had not even hoped that they would also
be in the Koran. But there they are with the same names applied
to Muhammeds wife and daughters.
Christine
I disagree wholeheartedly with the lady who called Sophia
of the past and the Christ of the Future. It is God the Father
who is of the eternal past, the ground of being from which all
eminates. Christ is of the now. He lives in every breath and
every heartbeat. The Sophia is the Holy Spirit, the "female"
of the Trinity - she is the force of transformation, an impulse
which can only come from the future. There can be no change without
an archetype of that change coming from the future.
Dottie
Why do you think this? What leads you to this
understanding? (of all three things I am thinking) How do you
know that Sophia is the Holy Spirit? I concurr but 'how' did
you find Her?
My other question would be what is the Father?
I have been in a search for the Mother and when I found her the
Father walked right off the page. So, now I am in a search for
the Father and what that really means to me. I can go to the
place of 'of course the Father is here' and so forth but that
does not mean that I, Dottie, found Him.
Christine
After His Death and Resurrection, the "I AM" was
fully incarnated into the individual human being through the
transformative power of Mary at the first Pentecost. It was through
Her incarnation of the Holy Spirit that the true "I AM"
came into the people in the upper room (Men & Women) and
from there began to spread to all of humanity.
Dottie
Christine, how do you know this? And I am
wondering what Mary you are speaking of and what books you may
have read that speak of this?
Christine
Mohammed just adapted it to fit the sons of Ishmael.
Dottie
How do you know this?
Christine
This "war" is not about Christianity and Islam or
Judaism and Islam or Christianity and Judaism or any other combination.
They are all the same in their manifestation as power structures.
And the true powers of this earth reside in none of them. The
true powers of the earth just use them as emotional tools to
gather masses of humanity and enslave them to their purpose.
Dottie
I disagree. I can see how it looks like this
but it is through these religions along with Steiners work that
I have been able to make sense of a thing. See, I came with a
different makeup from most on this list. I am a peasant in a
sense. I get it totally from the heart. I have to learn to get
it to the mind. Because I needed both to experience Christ in
the etheric. So, although they have been corrupted I believe
it is still a way Christ can be found. There's just a lot more
red tape to go through:)
Christine
To hear Anthroposophists back General Boykin (?) is just as
bad as saying that the Crusades were "holy wars". Of
course they were not holy. Nothing associated with fear is holy.
Spiritually necessary? I don't think so. Although an initiate
may look back on any event (even the incarnation of Hitler) and
see some positive long range spiritual energies set in motion
as sort of a back lash effect, one has to take a moment and say
"But did it REALLY have to be that way?" "Could
mankind have done it differently and achieved the same or even
a better effect?"
Dottie
The same could be said about the Christ incarnation
and crucifiction as well. Did it have to happen? Was there another
way? Christ says to Peter, 'get back Satan', after Peter wishes
to take away his future betrayal. I am at times conflicted on
this issue of whether it had to have happened. Yet, it is said
it did. Don't know it for my self yet.
Christine
What would this country be like today if we had met the native
populations in the same spirit that they, for the most part,
met us? What if European man had come only searching for freedom
and new experiences of life, rather than gold and slaves (Columbus'
expressed intentions and no other!) I refuse to believe that
Columbus was an initiate, and if he really was, then I do not
want to be associated with any initiate!
Dottie
I guess what I find, even today with Mr. Bush,
is that there is a rhyme and reason and a place our spirits takes
us that we would not willingly agree to go. I can see the downsides
of what Bush is doing and I am slowly beginning to see the upsides.
Don't like it much however we are human and there is a place
we are all heading to unawares. It seems with every great tragedy
there is a great outpouring of Love and goodwill. Why is that
I have to ask. I recently read, oh maybe it was from Tarjei,
that God/Lord gave Ahriman and Lucifer powers to further the
human/cosmic cause. Don't know that for my self though but I
understand it.
Christine
To say otherwise is a lie. Many Waldorf schools, teachers
and promoters are liars and I will say that to their faces. The
time for politely hiding the truth from the parents and even
teachers who come to them and to deny that what they are doing
may be very dangerous in the future is a real crime.
Dottie
What did you feel they were or are lying about?
What is your experience with Waldorf?
Christine
I apologize for the ranting, but this talk of "little
words in "soft voices" so that we can all see how lovely
each other's religions are makes me sick. Dottie, please don't
take this personally -
Dear Christine,
I was a wee bit worried you might take my
email as an afront when actually I am looking to learn. And I
hope to till the day I die. My eyesight is already going:)))
(I am sorry I get excited to experience what happens when one
begins to age) and 41 is not nearly as exciting as 40:) I just
want to get to fifty:)
My voice is really not soft, what I meant
to convey, which I see you want to kick the door down, and that
is fine and good, is being 'sincere' in my questioning and my
answering. I have found that when I am sincere with all my heart,
bridges are built. I find you to be sincere as well in your feelings.
So, I want to build the bridge. I have not given up.
I am not looking to find how lovely other
peoples religions are I am looking to find the lovelyness of
everyones spirit. For me the mind is what controls most people
and they are unaware of it so when I speak to their spirit I
find they speak back to me from the spirit. Not right away but
I choose to continue to not speak to the lower part of themselves
nor allow my lower self to speak to them. The seat I work from
is the heart. And I believe in that more than I believe in the
mind or anything I can physically see.
Christine
YOU don't make me sick - I know that you are well intentioned
and desiring above all else to work for love and make a difference
and this is completely valid on a one to one, interpersonal basis.
But it won't do in the larger arena.
Dottie
I find it is the ONLY thing that works from
the larger arena. There is nothing else but this: Love. imo.
Christine
"Love" will heal us but it won't shield us. We must
have Truth also. "Love" didn't keep Christ off the
cross - it put Him there!
Dottie
So, you think it could have ended another
way? And in one part of me that believes this was the only way
I find that Love sacrificed for us. I just remembered the third
daughters name; Aminah: Truth.
Christine
Understand this. We must see "face to face" and
not "as children" as Paul said (sorry for the truncation).
Dottie
Sharon, I have to say I disagree. It is from
the child like way of loving and trusting that I experience Christ.
You and I are face to face and we are fine(at least I hope we
are)and digging it. To me I have or at least am trying to get
rid of the things I have learned up until throughout my adult
hood. I have learned not to trust people, I have learned how
to be afraid, I have learned that I must follow what others say,
I have learned I am a female and therefore the lessor kind, I
have learned that I am not able to defend my self. All of these
things I had to unlearn. And now I am like a child who is not
afraid to be face to face.
Christine
We can not stop Ahriman's incarnation - it has already happened.
But we can look him in the eye just before we die and say "I
KNOW who you are - you cannot fool me! At least one human being
knows who you really are." It's not much, but it is on this
that the world hangs in the balance.
Dottie
I have issues with this Ahriman understanding
of things I think. I find Ahriman to come from the outside. It
reminds me of my new found thoughts on Evil. I don't hold Lucifer
as evil nor did I really think evil existed. However lately I
find my self contemplating that evil comes from the outside in
a way that I experience Ahriman. I don't think evil comes from
within the spirit but from without.
Your words or rather thoughts fit right in
with the book I am reading called Thus Spake Zarathustra by,
oh jeez I am gonna forget this mans name....Nietzche!
Thanks,
Dottie
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: golden3000997
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
PS - Uncle Taz in response to this from you:
It would be nice if you are right about
it. Frankly, I hope so, but I'm not convinced. I find it difficult
to discern any Islamic movement that is not spellbound by the
ethos and outlook of the Old Testament on the one hand, and blind
obedience on the other. A very destructive combination. I have
never heard a believing Muslim speaking on behalf of his/her
religion utter a single self-dependent, autonomous idea about
spiritual matters. It's always what the Koran says and what it
doesn't say. Whatever you think _must_ be supported by some verse
from that book. Look how destructive this kind of "scriptural"
fundamentalism has become in the West. All the unspeakable miscief
from the CIA and the Pentagon is being fuelled by the fears and
vindictiveness that lives and thrives in the Religious Right,
the Christian Coalition and so on. If it were up to me, I would
send all the Christian fundies and the nutty Muslims out to an
island where they could slug it out among themselves. They deserve
each other. They're of the same ilk.
They ARE on an island, slugging it out - The
ISLAND is EARTH. The unfortunate thing is that we happen to be
on the island with them!!! : 0
: ) Christine
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Frank Thomas
Smith
Date: Thu Nov 6, 2003 7:21 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
(snip)
Rudolf Steiner was a revolutionary. He was a political revolutionary
who put together the most radical approach to social order that
exists yet on this planet. And he placed it on the table in front
of Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson at the Treaty of Versailles.
Just in case you're not speaking metaphorically,
that never happened.
Then he brought forward Waldorf Education
as a revolutionary act, a subversive act - it has the express
intention of making at least a homeopathic element of society
ready for the Threefold Social Order. To say otherwise is a lie.
Many Waldorf schools, teachers and promoters are liars and I
will say that to their faces. The time for politely hiding the
truth from the parents and even teachers who come to them and
to deny that what they are doing may be very dangerous in the
future is a real crime.
I taught at a Waldorf school, and still teach
a course at the Teachers Training Seminar in Buenos Aires. Maybe
I'm not one of your liars, maybe I am. I could judge that if
you would tell me what the hell you're talking about. You sound
like one of those creeps at Plans.
Does that mean that Waldorf schools shouldn't
exist? Of course not - they must exist as long as the powers
of this earth decide to allow it (which may not be much longer).
But the work should be done in the clear light of day. Everyone
should understand the real WAR that is raging around us as we
sit in our comfortable houses with food on our tables. By the
time we go to stand in line for our chips and bar codes that
will allow us to keep paying our mortgage and buying our groceries,
we should be prepared to recognize it as just the sense-perceptible
result of the supersensible battle going on right now.
YOU may not believe that you are personally affected yet. But
people all around you are being rounded up and killed right now
in the name of the "holy" the "good" the
"American way of life." YOU will be next. You will
succumb or die, one way or another. You can succumb to the truth
and die physically, or can succumb to the powers of this earth
and die spiritually. You have the choice to make. It is the ONLY
choice that you will have to make in the days to come.
My God, fire and brimstone.
I apologize for the ranting, but ...(snip)
Why apologize, when you're not sorry?
(snip)
Wake up sleepers, awake! The time is at hand and we cannot
rest in dreams. Follow the trail of truth on the internet while
it is still there to see. I will post links to important sites.
We can not stop Ahriman's incarnation - it has already happened.
But we can look him in the eye just before we die and say "I
KNOW who you are - you cannot fool me! At least one human being
knows who you really are." It's not much, but it is on this
that the world hangs in the balance.
Who?
Frank
[continued
in another thread]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Fri Nov 7, 2003 8:36 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 01:33 07.11.2003, Christine Natale wrote:
I hear over and over again so many platitudes
about Islam being a beautiful religion. Well, after 911 I decided
to see for myself and downloaded most of the Koran and started
to read it. I haven't read it through and I can't say 100% that
it is what I think it is, but my impression so far is that it
is a mish-mash of old testament stories combined with the kind
of hell and brimstone stuff that would make a Southern Baptist
pale in comparison. There is no forgiveness, no flexibility.
Everything is totally black and white, us and them, heaven and
hell. No possiblility of interpretation or redemption.
I end up with a feeling of ambivalence when
I'm trying to decipher Steiner's take on the Arabs. On the one
hand, he says in a lecture somewhere that we Westerners usually
have no idea of the special relationship an Arab has to the Christ.
On the other hand, he also talks about the Arabic-Islamic world
as the one and only corner of the earth where the culture has
not been touched by the Christ Impulse, where they've managed
to dodge the Golgotha Mystery altogether. I still haven't figured
it out.
And even if that were not enough, one must
have a critical eye toward any religion in its practice as well
as its theory. There is nothing of love or understanding or forgiveness
in any of its practices, either. There is only power and oppression,
and I mean particularly to its own people, especially women.
On the other hand, the distinction needs to
be made between a religion like that and its individual followers.
When spiritual, social, and cultural impulses and practices that
may have been right for an earler age or epoch, is preserved
and continued beyond its rightful time, such streams become hijacked
by ahrimanic and even asuric beings and end up serving the hindering
gods. For this reason, all Old Age religions based upon faith
in old scriptures, supporting a mode of cognition that should
have ended completely around 1950, are becoming increasingly
evil, and we're only seeing the faint beginnings of this.
But remember the Good Samaritan, who today
would translate into the Good Muslim. Dottie seems to be talking
about the spirituality of beautiful souls who happen to be Muslims.
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 5:34 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Dear Group:
The following was being distributed throughout other Anthroposophic
e-groups. The material may be disturbing and quite controversial
due to the recent developments in the last couple of years. It
is compilation of various points that Steiner had given to the
CC priests in September of 1924. The translation/edition is not
exactly what I have in my edition at some points. I looked through
my copy and found that the following is actually from two lectures
and that these are points from Steiner's lectures that the individual
had selected.
The lecture cycle is titled, "The Book of Revelation and
the Work of the Priest." (18 lectures). The two cited lectures
are: 11 & 12 September, 1924; Dornach, Switzerland.
rick distasi
From one basic way of considering
this matter, there are two realms: the realm of NATURE - which
is the realm of the Father (the source of the created world both
spiritually and physically) - and the realm of the SPIRIT. The
Mohammedan teachings do not know the structure of the world I
have just been speaking about. They know - and can ONLY know
- the Father. They know only the rigid doctrine: "There
is one God, Allah, and none beside him, and Mohammed is his Prophet."
From this angle, the teachings of Mohammed are the strongest
polarity to Christianity. Indeed, resident in a hidden manner
within the Islamic worldview is the will to do away with all
freedom forever, the will to bring about a purely deterministic
spiritual and social order that would dominate every aspect of
human life, for nothing else is possible if you imagine the world
solely in the sense of a Father God alone.
A foreboding of this gave
the apocalypse-writer (John) the feeling: The human being cannot
be found, or find himself, in this. The human being cannot become
filled through and through with Christ if he remains connected
with the doctrine of the Father (alone). Restricted to this,
the human being cannot take hold of his own humanness. He fails
to become fully human if he is only able to conceive the Father
God.
In the end, the human being
only becomes human by making Christ alive within himself and
thereby gaining protection from the material conviction that
spiritual realities are illusionary and vaporous epi-phenomena
of purely material causes. Entertainment of the doctrine of the
Father (alone) inescapably arrives at a conceptual materialism
such as represented, for example, by Darwinism, the view that
the human being arises from purely material causes.
And if we regard Christianity
primarily as that which accords with the Sun forces spiritually
speaking, and such as is reflected / mirrored / mediated / manifested
by the nine ranks of angelic Hierarchies, then we may identify
that which OPPOSES these spiritual/sun forces as "anti-sun"
forces or as "sun demon." This "sun demon"
works COUNTER to the Christian principle in such a way that -
if a human being were to succumb to the lures of the sun demon
and his inspiration, then that same human being would - by his
own free choice - surrender all inward connection to the divinity
of Christ for an inward connection with the sub-human spiritual
realms.
The apocalyptist saw this.
- He felt and saw the mighty (future) counter-principle of Arabism
bursting in on Christianity. It was clear to him that, from this
Arabism, everything arises that brings the human being close
to the purely animal nature, first of all in his views, but gradually
also in his combined impulses of will and action. And what the
apocalyptist saw BEHIND the future scenes of the looming Mohammedan
historical impulse was the sun demon at work, working against
the sun forces, against the spiritual sun-intelligence. If asked,
the apocalyptist would have called the representatives of Arabism
in Europe "human beings who have willingly dedicated themselves
to the sun demon in their souls' nature."
Dear friends, the number 666
represented both the NAME and the TIME when Arabism would flow
into Christianity in order to impress the seal of materialism
upon western culture. The apocalyptist portrays everything that
works as a counter-principle to Christianity - such as Arabism
and its deterministic conceptual constructs - as direct outflow
from the counter-spirituality represented by the sun-demon Surat.
And, in the final analysis, everything flowing from Arabism was
directed ultimately against a spiritual Christian understanding
of transubstantiation. External facts certainly do not look as
if this were the case but - by allotting validity only to the
Father principle - to the natural world-order, the sun demon
forces indeed intended to sweep away from human view an immediate
feeling for that which is active in the very deepest way in a
sacrament such as transubstantiation.
(The great revolutions that
came about in Europe as a result of the Crusades belong under
the sign of the SECOND occurrence of the number 666.)
During the first 666, dear
friends, Surat was still hidden but actively at work within the
external process of outward events; he was not seen in clear
outward manifestation. Now before us [in 1924] lies the time
of the third number 666: 1998 A.D. At the end of this (the twentieth)
century, the time will come when Surat will ONCE AGAIN raise
his head most strongly out of the waves of history. Only two-thirds
of the 20th century will have still to run before Surat/Sorat
once again raises his head most mightily. Before this (twentieth)
century is out, he will show himself through his appearance in
many human beings as the one by whom many are "possessed."
Human beings will appear of whom it will be impossible to believe
that they are really human beings. These Surat-inspired human
beings will be recognizable by their external appearance; in
a terrible way they will not only scoff at everything, but will
also oppose, and want to destroy, and to push into the abyss
anything that is spiritual. Outwardly, they will have intense
and strong dispositions, with savage countenances, and with furious
destructiveness in their emotions.
The intention to sweep-away
anything spiritual will be deep-seated in large numbers of earthly
souls, just as the apocalyptist has foreseen in the beast-like
countenance, and the beast-like strength, that will underlie
the deeds of the adversary over against the spiritual. Even today,
hidden rage against spiritual things is already immense, yet
it is still in its very early infancy in contrast to what is
to come....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dottie zold
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 7:17 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Dear Richard and Friends,
I find my self perplexed when 'feeling' common
ground has been take on issues as important as the one state
below by Dr. Steiner.
My position is that we have overcome and that
definitely includes the Arabs and Muslim following peoples. I
can not have anyone, until the end of time, tell me what a people
will or will not do or succumb to. My fight and I believe it
is MichaelSophia's fight is to inspire the kernal of Christ that
exists in all of us.
I find people tend to say 'well that is the
way it is told and that is the way it is going to be' human laziness.
The spirit cries out to see beyond what we as humans can comprehend
and it begs for warriors willing to find love and expose it for
the good. Nurture it in righteousness for All. Allah is both
masculine and feminine principles. It is seen even in the name.
I find Sophia in the beginnings of this story
of Muhammed. She is there whether anyone else can see her or
not. There is no way for her not to be there. They have been
lied to just as the Christic people have been regarding Sophia.
But that is okay because it must have been the way this story
unfolds because it has already been told.
I think we will find if Dr. Steiner is right
regarding the Slavs that it will be through their close affiliation
with the Arab world that a true course will succeed. The hearts
of these two people match entirely in my thoughts. Sophia reigns
without being seen. She is felt, though.
I as well consider that the outer minds of
people percieve Christianity, Judiasm as well as Muslim, as Father
religions. Its pretty obvious when one truly opens to ChristSophia
they are not. People who follow a spiritual path may not see
it this way and that must include Muslims.
I wish Catherine were here, she is well versed
in the feeling of the people even if we may come to different
conclusions.
Thanks Richard for digging up the post. That
is pretty interesting. Nothing like a little fire to rekindle
the path.
My Thoughts,
Dottie
[repeated message snipped]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 9:38 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Thanks a million, Rick! It's amazing: On my
very bookshelf in front of me, I have this lecture cycle - "The
Book of Revelation and the Work of the Priest." - in a new
edition (Rudolf Steiner Press 1998) that I purchased some time
last year, but after reading the first five lectures, I became
too busy with other things to continue, and then I forgot all
about it. Until now. Gee, you just opened my eyes here. You mention
lectures 11 and 12, but here is the synopsis for lecture 7:
"Lecture 7, Dornach, 11. September 1924
The year 333. The apocalypt's prophetic vision of a possible
departure from the Christ Principle and return to the Father
Principle. Mohammedan teachings. 666 - the number of the Beast.
Transubstantiation and karma."
(Reference: Vorträge und Kurse über
christlich-religiöses Wiurken, V. Apokalypse und Priesterwirken,
GA 346)
The last lecture in this cycle (no. 18) was
held (in Dornach) 22. september 1924, i.e immediately before
he became too ill to lecture any more! We're talking about Steiner's
final lectures here.
If I can squeeze in the time, I'll post some
of this stuff on my website as a follow-up to my previously cited
article about Western lodges and Islam. Again, thanks!
Maybe the expression is inappropriate under
the circumstances, but this is dynamite.
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 10:10 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Tarjei,
Maybe we have different editions. It might be better to simply
list the dates of the two lectures which would be September 11
& 12, 1924.
This post caused quite a stir around other e-groups.
Also, you're welcome!
rick distasi
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 10:51 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 19:10 08.11.2003, Rick wrote:
Maybe we have different editions. It might
be better to simply list the dates of the two lectures which
would be September 11 & 12, 1924.
I was thinking along the lines of quoting
extensively with a few comments here and there, like I did with
the text from "The Challenge of the Times" in the other
article.
This post caused quite a stir around other
e-groups.
So be it. That's what public lists based upon
free speech is all about, even if it entails a flame war once
in a while. These things need to be addressed and discussed openly
and without prejudice. The lecture cycle in question here has
been kept strictly private until recent years. Now that it has
been published openly, it should also be quoted and discussed
freely.
From the publisher's foreword:
Since 1924, this text has
been in private circulation among the priests of the Christian
Community. For many years the Rudolf Steiner Nachlassvervaltung,
the literary estate of Rudolf Steiner - a fully independent organization
which holds the literary copyright to his work - has not ventured
to publish its copy of the notes, respecting Steiner's original
intention that they were intended only for the circle of priests.
In 1995, however, the decision was taken - without the support
of the Christian Community - to publish a version of the texts.
This publication appeared through the estate's publishing arm,
Rudolf Steiner' Verlag, as volume 346 in Rudolf Steiner's collected
works in the original German.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 2:06 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Tarjei,
I'd be interested in your article when you post it to our group
as well.
rick d.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 11:54 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 11:06 09.11.2003, Rick wrote:
I'd be interested in your article when
you post it to our group as well.
It may take a while. I'm going to read the
entire aforementioned lecture cycle "The Book of Revelation
and the work of the priest" first. After that, there will
be a lot of transcription to do - so much, in fact, that I'll
also have to request copyright permission in this case, because
these translations are quite new.
In the meantime, it would be nice if someone
on the list happens to be in possession of one of the Karma lectures
from March 1924 where RS speaks about Woodrow Wilson's earlier
incarnation as a Muslim fanatic. If so, please post the relevant
passage(s) to the list here.
It would be interesting to find the link between
the anti-spiritual, destructive Arabism described by Steiner
and how this stream has influenced religious militant fanaticism
in the West. And then again, how do the secret lodges of the
West relate to all this?
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 12:17 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Hi Uncle Taz,
I've got the lecture - will type the passage
for you in a couple of minutes. Here are more good links - and
don't forget David Icke!
http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html
http://www.sonic.net/~kerry/bohemian/bibliography.html
Bibliography
A list of several books and magazine articles,
and some links pertaining to Bohemian Grove.
Text copyright © 2002 Kerry Richardson
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Bohemian Grove and Other Retreats by G.
William Domhoff, Harper & Row, New York, 1974. Subtitled
"A Study in Ruling-Class Cohesiveness," the 1974 hardbound
edition of this book has a 59 page overview of the Bohemian Grove
that is only slightly dated and includes a 130 page "Appendix
of Heavies," a table analyzing the overlapping social club
and policy-planning group memberships of hundreds of prominent
men in the fields of business, academia, and the media. Domhoff,
a professor of sociology and psychology, also presents the hypothesis
that there is an upper social class in the United States made
up of owners and managers of large corporations, and that this
group's interests often conflict with those of working people.
Domhoff argues that this upper social class - comprising one
percent of the total population at most and controlling the majority
of the nation's privately held corporate wealth - directs the
large corporations and foundations, and dominates the federal
government. Domhoff views the Bohemian Club and its retreat at
the Bohemian Grove as evidence that supports his hypothesis,
and he thinks such gatherings facilitate group cohesiveness among
the upper social class. The Greatest Men's Party on Earth by
John van der Zee, Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc., New York,
1974. Writer John van der Zee waited tables at the Grove during
the summer of 1972, the Bohemian Club's 100th year of existence.
In his 1974 book subtitled "Inside the Bohemian Grove,"
he combines his first-hand observations of camp life with extensive
historical research and information gathered from interviews
of club members to present an overview of the club and its encampment.
Chapters include a discussion of the founding of the club by
newsmen and artistic types and the subsequent evolution of the
group to a more socially and politically prominent organization
financed by those of greater wealth, with visual and performing
artists and musicians accepted as associate members. Van der
Zee writes about Herbert Hoover's role as an honored participant
in the annual encampments and describes and interprets a lakeside
talk, a variety show with famous performers, and the Grove's
annual play that is staged with considerable effort and expense
at a large outdoor theater within the Grove. Chapter nine, titled
"The Bomb" recounts networking activities by Ernest
Lawrence at the Grove that resulted in financial support for
his nuclear physics research, and it tells of a secret meeting
at the Grove during the second world war where scientists made
key decisions about how to develop the atomic bomb. The Grove's
summer encampments are still much as van der Zee describes, although
there are now some African-American members, and, as a result
of court decisions, there are now female workers.
Sex Work: Writings by Women in the Sex Industry
edited by Frédérique Delacoste and Priscilla Alexander,
Cleis Press, San Francisco, 1987. This book is still in print
in its second edition. Among its contents are two first person
accounts of prostitution related to the Bohemian Grove gatherings.
Although not an official club activity, some of the rowdier campers
have been known to "jump the river." In Sonoma County
where the Grove is located, it is common knowledge that this
type of activity occurs during the Grove encampments. In the
early 1970's and the early 1980's there were two criminal actions
directed against operators of a bar and a motel in the summer
resort community of Guerneville upstream and across the river
from the Grove. Both prosecutions foundered. Quoted in the West
Sonoma County Paper in 1983, Margo St. James noted that the top
level guys don't go to the local tavern, "They work through
madams from the City." The "low jinks" theatrical
production at the 1991 encampment titled "The Fun House"
made fun of the topic, the plot being that two not-too-bright
takeover artists discover their first corporate raid brings them
a brothel.
"Inside Bohemian Grove" by Philip
Weiss, Spy magazine, November 1989. A fifteen page article mentioning
some sixty Bohemian clubbers by name, the author prior to infiltrating the 1989 Bohemian Grove encampment
anticipated writing a satirical piece but found that truth was
more pertinent than fiction. The article features a map of the
Grove and numerous small photos made inside the encampment. 1989
was the year Ronald Reagan returned to the Grove encampment after
his two terms as U.S. president. Weiss was the first to report
the presence at the Grove of France's then Prime Minister Michel
Rocard and includes a summary with quotes from Rocard's lakeside
talk. The article contains many first-hand observations of life
at the Grove and includes a sidebar compendium of jokes told
by Grove campers.
"Power Playground" by John van der
Zee, Business Month magazine, July/August 1988. Van der Zee,
author of The Greatest Men's Party on Earth, touches on the business
ambiance at the Grove. While the overt conducting of business
is discouraged at the Grove - "weaving spiders come not
here" is a club motto - introductions and contacts are made,
issues can be discussed in privacy at the camps, and the lakeside
talks can be one of the country's most influential forums. While
there are categories of associate membership for artists and
performers, van der Zee notes that dues for regular members in
1988 could be as high as $110 a month with an initiation fee
of over $8,000, and a prospective member could be on a waiting
list for eighteen years. Van der Zee considers the Cave Man camp,
formerly the Bohemian Grove dwelling of Herbert Hoover and Richard
Nixon, to have the most honored status among the Grove's residence
groupings.
"Mondo loro" by Pino Buongiorno,
Panorama magazine, 12 Agosto, 1990 (August 12, 1990). The Italian
newsmagazine's four page illustrated article about Bohemian Grove
(written in Italian) contains phrases such as "Superclub,
che mania" (Superclub, what a craze) and "comandante
dello Strategic air command" (commander of the Strategic
Air Command), and "una delle maggiori fabbriche di armi
del mondo" (one of the biggest arms manufacturers in the
world). The article title may mean "their world." The
article includes some of the photos that are on this website.
"Pouvoir: le club le plus fermé
du monde" by Jean Sébastien Stehli, Le Point magazine,
27 Août, 1994 (August 27, 1994). Written in French. (Power:
the world's most exclusive club.) Le Point is a major French
newsmagazine.
"Power at Play: The Boho Boys Club"
by W. Hampton Sides, Regardie's magazine, January 1991. Sides
penetrated the Bohemian Grove in the course of researching a
book about American subcultures. (His book Stomping Grounds,
in addition to a chapter about Bohemian Grove, includes an account
of a Rainbow gathering.) The long article in the Washington D.C.
based Regardie's magazine includes a sidebar identifying nineteen
Bohemian clubbers connected to the national capital area.
"The Male Manager's Last Refuge"
by Walter McQuade, Fortune magazine, August 5, 1985. The Bohemian
Grove is featured most prominently in this article about all-male
country retreats. McQuade also mentions the horse-oriented Rancheros
Visitadores in California and the Colorado based Roundup Riders
of the Rockies, as well as the aerospace industry linked Conquistadores
del Cielo which meets in Wyoming, and
the Moles, a group of executives who build tunnels and other
heavy construction projects who have a summer place near New
York City. The Fortune article has two large photos supplied
by the Bohemian Club, one showing a "low-jinks" theatrical
production and the other showing pyrotechnics at the Grove's
"Cremation of Care" opening pageant.
"Inside Bohemian Grove: The Story People
Magazine Won't Let You Read," Extra! magazine November/December
1991. Another reporter infiltrates the Grove, but this time he
is spotted by one of his bosses, a Time Warner executive who
was attending the encampment. The story planned for People magazine
was killed. Extra! is published by FAIR, Fairness and Accuracy
in Reporting, a New York based media watch group. This article
has sidebars critical of Time Warner, one quoting an unnamed
former Time magazine reporter saying his 1987 report about cocaine
trafficking in Oliver North's contra supply network was killed
by Time. Another story killing is mentioned: a Time reporter
was undercover in the Bohemian Grove in 1982, but that report
also didn't see print.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Santa Rosa Press Democrat - The Press
Democrat is the daily paper closest geographically to the Bohemian
Grove and it has a website. Recent articles can be called up
with a search function. The Sonoma County Free Press - The Free
Press is an online activist "zine" that contains commentary
and reporting by Mary Moore in the Bohemian Grove Action Network
section. Moore has organized protest demonstrations at the entrance
to the Grove. (Speaking in Sebastopol a few years ago, Michael
Parenti acknowledged Moore as having led the exposure of the
Bohemian Grove.)
A Relative Advantage: Sociology of the San
Francisco Bohemian Club - A Doctoral Dissertation by Peter M.
Phillips, Ph.D., Director of Project Censored and Associate Professor,
Department of Sociology, School of Social Sciences at California's
Sonoma State University.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: golden3000997
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 12:36 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Karmic Relationships
Esoteric Studies
Volume V
Rudolf Steiner
Lecture IV. Prague, 5th April, 1924
First Edition 1966
(Excerpt)
In Dornach recently I was
able to call attention to another connection of karma, one which
caused me repeatedly during the War, and especially at the end
of the War, to warn people against allowing themselves to be
blinded by a certain outstanding figure of modern times. In the
Helsingfors lectures of 1913 I had already spoken of the very
limited abilities of the person in question. This was because
the connection between Muawiyah, a follower of Mohammed in the
7th century, and Woodrow Wilson, was clear to me. All the fatalism
which characterized the personality of Muawiyah came out in the
otherwise inexplicable fatalism of Woodrow Wilson - in his
case, fatalism of will. And if anyone wants to find corroboration,
to discover the origin of the well-known Fourteen Points, he
has only to turn to the Koran. Such are the connections. These
things must be kept absolutely free from sympathy or antipathy;
it is not a question of criticism but only of the purest objectivity.
But this very objectivity leads form one point in history at
which a soul has appeared, to another such point. When humanity
outsteps in some degree the still surviving heritage of materialism,
people will be willing to listen to such things and observe for
themselves. And then they will feel quite differently about their
place in modern civilization because they will be able to see
it not in a dead but in a living setting. That is the important
point. The whole process of historical development will be imbued
with life. And if man is to ge beyond the blind alley in which
he is now standing in his civilization, he needs the living spirit
and not the dead spirit of abstract concepts and ideas.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: J. Gardner
Date: Sun Nov 9, 2003 8:55 pm
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Dear Tarjei and Dottie,
One thing I think you may have overlooked,
Tarjei, is the fact that the "average" muslim is not
so different than the average Christian. They're certainly not
all fundies. I really don't see a great deal of difference between
them, except in the fact that the fundamentalist Muslims seem
to have been allowed to follow their twisted dreams to a greater
extent (I hope) than their Christian counterparts. A poor example,
(but one that comes to mind), is David Koresh. Do you know of
him? What might have become of his movement if it had been allowed
to go on for another twenty years?
Maybe western countries do a better job of
keeping tabs on the worst of the lot than do some of the middle
Eastern countries. I don't know. (Not that I think that we did
a good job with David Koresh, which is why he wasn't the best
example to illustrate my point.) But having lived in the Muslim
country of Malaysia for about 1-1/2 years, I can tell you that
they have no more tolerance for terrorism or extremism than do
we.
Jerry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:38 am
Subject: RE: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 05:55 10.11.2003, Jerry wrote:
One thing I think you may have overlooked,
Tarjei, is the fact that the "average" muslim is not
so different than the average Christian. They're certainly not
all fundies. I really don't see a great deal of difference between
them, except in the fact that the fundamentalist Muslims seem
to have been allowed to follow their twisted dreams to a greater
extent (I hope) than their Christian counterparts. A poor example,
(but one that comes to mind), is David Koresh. Do you know of
him?
Waco, Texas?
What might have become of his movement
if it had been allowed to go on for another twenty years?
I haven't had the chance yet to study the
Revelation cycle in question here, but as I understand from RS,
the so-called Arabic stream may be the direct influence upon
such extreme cults in the West.
But while (or if) we're on the subject of
Waco, I wonder why in the world the FBI actually murdered the
sect members in cold blood like that. It seems to me that law
enforcement represents a dangerous cult in its own right.
Maybe western countries do a better job
of keeping tabs on the worst of the lot than do some of the middle
Eastern countries.
I don't know what you mean by "keeping
tabs on" - especially when you're talking about open, permissive
democracies. By countries, do you mean governments?
I don't know. (Not that I think that we
did a good job with David Koresh, which is why he wasn't the
best example to illustrate my point.) But having lived in the
Muslim country of Malaysia for about 1-1/2 years, I can tell
you that they have no more tolerance for terrorism or extremism
than do we.
I pointed out earler that it's important to
distinguish between individuals and the religious streams they're
connected to. Such streams are especially dangerous for souls
with specific weaknesses. And among a billion Muslims, the potential
is alarming.
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dottie zold
Date: Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: occult lodges and islam
Hi Dearest Jerry and Tarjei,
Jerry you wrote:
One thing I think you may have overlooked,
Tarjei, is the fact that the "average" muslim is not
so different than the average Christian. They're certainly not
all fundies. I really don't see a great deal of difference between
them, except in the fact that the fundamentalist Muslims seem
to have been allowed to follow their twisted dreams to a greater
extent (I hope) than their Christian counterparts.
Dottie
I have been thinking that the main difference
is the monetary and manipulation sophistication of the United
States. They are both doing the same thing albeit in different
manners. The US has had these neo cons in the defence department
forever or at least since the early sixties to the degree we
find them today. We are creating unknown havoc across the lands.
And we are considered a Christian nation. It just looks prettier
when we do it. We kill 11,000 innocent, low number, of Iraqis
and who knows how many Afghanis and its okay. We are now deploying
a strategy (in last two days) that Isreal is using on the Palenstinians:
bombing indiscrimately. A child dies, so what? Collateral damage.
Tarjei
I haven't had the chance yet to study the
Revelation cycle in question here, but as I understand from RS,
the so-called Arabic stream may be the direct influence upon
such extreme cults in the West.
Dottie
In what possible manner? It seems to me to
be the exact opposite. The Islamic peoples have always had a
great respect for Mary and her son. They are the only group between
the triad, that respects and includes both Judiasm and Christainity
in the same breath. The Jews disregard Christ and the Christian
say the Jews killed God. Muhammed says respect the people of
the books. (Bible)
I am contemplating that this people would
have slid even further had Muhammed not come on the scene when
he had. It seems this was a most uneducated group in regards
to social norms and that even the tiniest things were made unto
laws. Almost like teaching a social norm.
Tarjei
I pointed out earler that it's important
to distinguish between individuals and the religious streams
they're connected to. Such streams are especially dangerous for
souls with specific weaknesses. And among a billion Muslims,
the potential is alarming?
Dottie
What do you consider their specific weakness?
I have been reading a book called Three Early
Sufi Texts * A Treatise on the Heart * Stations of the Righteous
& The Stumblings of Those Aspiring. It was written about
3 hundred years after Muhammeds transition.
What is interesting about this book is the
idea that Muslim is the first stage of a four stage process that
involves the heart. I will leave a few passages for contemplation
and to see if anyone reads it the way I do or may be able to
help me see it another way.
"In this system the heart is described
as consisting of four parts or stations. These are the breast,
the heart proper, the inner heart, and the intellect. They are
arranged in concentric spheres, the breast being the outermost
sphere followed on the inside by the heart, the inner heart and
finally the intellect. Within the intellect are yet other stations
which, however, are too subtle to be described by words.
Each of these stations of the heart has its
own characteristics and functions. Thus the breast is the abode
or seat of the light of Islam. It is also the repository for
that kind of knowledge required for the practice of Islam, such
as knowledge of the Qur'an, the Prophetic traditions and the
religious law."
It goes on to discuss each of these heart
stations. But here is the part that really caught my eye and
I am tryng to understand better:
"Each of these four stations of the heart
is associated with one of the four spiritual stages of the Sufi
path. Thus the breast and the light of Islam within it correspond
to the first stage, that of the Muslim. The heart proper and
light of faith correspond to the believer, the inner heart and
the light of gnosis to the gnostic, and the intellect and the
light of unification to the highest stage, that of unitarian."
So, what I am reading into this is the idea
that calling oneself a 'Muslim' is stating in fact that one is
on the first step of Islam. Kind of like when Dr. Steiner speaks
of Jesus denoting a certain stage of enlightment of Jesus' disciples
regarding being called a certain name according to that level.
(Attaining the name of the nation means having accomplished that
particular level)
These calls of Muhammed being a common thief
and a camel stealer and so forth may or may not have been true
at one point. However there seems much to debunct this train
of thought. Not to mention the fact that he 'indeed' does have
mysteries within his understanding that others have picked up
on through contemplating his life and his readings.
And I believe a huge point we are missing
out on is who taught them the level of violence that they are
now loosening on the world. We did. Britain did. Doesn't make
it right. However, reading the first message of Osama bin Laden
after the 9/11 tragedy I found a certain understanding of his
train of thought. I actually do not think he had any part of
this terrible day other than cheering on those who were trying
to take on the political and monetary structure of the beast
of whom America is becoming. I believe we have more in the blind
Mullah sitting in jail than Osama had with us.
We can look over in Africa and see the hideous
things occuring there that have nothing to do with Islam. We
can look at the cruscades, Bosnia, Serbia Germany. Hundreds of
thousands killed within years. Hideous. Islam definitely does
not have the market on terrorism.
And I believe those calling the shots today
are actually on the backside pulling peoples together. The religious
right on both sides will continue to force seperations but the
god loving peoples are finding a way to make inroads. This is
there time to be heard.
Muhammed brought women into the fold. It was
women who helped confirm and initiate his journey from the way
I see it. Did he do or say things that were not complimentary
towards women. It seems he did. And it seems to be in the tradition
of the times as we can well see with Peter and Paul. However
I do sense a similar understanding of Sophia as that of Jesus
within his spirit.
My thoughts,
Dottie
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dottie zold
Date: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:30 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Hi Tarjei,
I have been reading a wonderful book on Muhammed
by Karen Armstrong. In there she mentions something about the
history of the Arab people along with France and Britain during
a colonial time for this region.
One thing caught my attention was the idea
that the Muslims were the fastest growing religion and that the
Christic minded people were extremely fearful of them. Many of
the fears came from Christians who believed mistakenly, according
to Ms. Armstrong, that Muhammed was born or died on 666.
So, he is or was the anti christ in their
minds. And she claims it never really changed. Even unto the
Satanic Versus written by Rushdie which she claims is a slanderous
piece on Muhammed. She mentions how 24 of the 25 groups in that
region stated that the verdict to kill Rushdie was not in the
vein of Muhammed. Yet this did not get any coverage. What got
coverage was the foolish ayatollahs spouting stupidity. Of course.
In the mind of the Muslims they have always,
since taking on a monotheist mentality, believed in the same
God as Christians and Jews. Yet, why is it that the Christians
as far as I can tell have always believed it to be a different
God. Even unto the General who you featured in another post.
Point being I think Islam deserves to be looked
at again versus all the propagandist style remarks that float
from the lips of those on a spiritual path. If we continue in
this manner we will never find the peace and will only propagate
war till the end of time. It seems we are going on our grandparents
opinions of such a people. I can see how this 'fight' with them
is along the lines of a Light Bearer and His Brother pushing
and pulling till we humans finally get that we are all One. And
we are this One and we are connected and a part of Allah.
I just saw the Matrix tonight. Kind of blew
me away. The Christic nature of it overwhelmed me for a second
and it was sweet. The powerful ideas behind this movie for a
physical world was just what I needed to see put out there right
now. We are indeed our double till we transform it. Our fight
is not with Islam it is with ourselves. The idea we access from
Gandhi ought to be extended to the Muslim world.
Dottie
p.s. So what that Dr. Steiner states certain
realities about the Muslim peoples. We can use it to understand
a thing better. But isn't our path to be Christ like? If so than
it is our duty, is it not, to uplift ourselves so that we may
uplift others. Isn't Michaels battle about transforming our selves
our world and our universe?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:07 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 06:30 12.11.2003, Dottie wrote:
In the mind of the Muslims they have always,
since taking on a monotheist mentality, believed in the same
God as Christians and Jews. Yet, why is it that the Christians
as far as I can tell have always believed it to be a different
God. Even unto the General who you featured in another post.
I'll respond to this with two appropriate
RS quotes, giving him two little speeeches. First, here is a
quote from Behind
the Scenes of External Happenings (13th November, 1917)
When a man's attitude to the
spiritual world is merely that of the "enlightened"
Church today, his relationship to the spiritual world - even
if it is only in his feeling - is of a definite kind; it is simply
a relationship with his Guardian Angel, the Angelos with whom
he is, in fact, connected. And this Angelos - the only Being
with whom he is able to feel related - he calls his God; if he
is a Christian he calls him Christ; he confuses his Angelos with
Christ. This may be difficult to understand, but it is so. Protestant
theologians who claim to be enlightened and inveigh against Polytheism,
urging men to establish direct relationship with the one Being,
Christ - whatever they may preach concerning Christ, the truth
is that what they say has only to do with the relationship of
the human being to his Angelos. Monotheism in our time is in
danger of becoming a worship of the Angelos of each individual
human being.
Men are still unwilling to
admit many things that are nevertheless there. Even the crudest
circumstances, however, prove to an objective observer that such
illusions set men well on the path to calamitous ideas. This
worship of man's own Angelos is the reason why each individual
has his own God, merely imagining that he shares with others
a Godhead who is common to them all. The truth is that the monotheist
of today has only his own individual Angelos and because there
is such uniformity in the words with which each human being describes
his own egotistical relation to the Angelos, people imagine that
they are speaking of the Divinity who is the one God of them
all. If this state of things were to continue, individuals would
develop, still more strongly, the tendency that is taking such
a terrible form among the nations today. Although the nations
still theorise about the one universal Godhead, they do not -
and this holds good above all at the present time - really acknowledge
this one Godhead, because each of them prefers to have its own
special God.
And here is an even more fitting quote, from
Love and its
Meaning in the World (Zurich, 17th December, 1912):
Besides love there are two
other powers in the world. How do they compare with love? The
one is strength, might; the second is wisdom. In regard to strength
or might we can speak of degrees: weaker, stronger, or absolute
might - omnipotence. The same applies to wisdom, for there are
stages on the path to omniscience. It will not do to speak in
the same way of degrees of love. What is universal love, love
for all beings? In the case of love we cannot speak of enhancement
as we can speak of enhancement of knowledge into omniscience
or of might into omnipotence, by virtue of which we attain greater
perfection of our own being. Love for a few or for many beings
has nothing to do with our own perfecting. Love for everything
that lives cannot be compared with omnipotence; the concept of
magnitude, or of enhancement, cannot rightly be applied to love.
Can the attribute of omnipotence be ascribed to the Divine Being
who lives and weaves through the world? Contentions born of feeling
must here be silent: were God omnipotent, he would be responsible
for everything that happens and there would be no human freedom.
If man can be free, then certainly there can be no Divine omnipotence.
Is the Godhead omniscient?
As man's highest goal is likeness to God, our striving must be
in the direction of omniscience. Is omniscience, then, the supreme
treasure? If it is, a vast chasm must forever yawn between man
and God. At every moment man would have to be aware of this chasm
if God possessed the supreme treasure of omniscience for himself
and withheld it from man. The all-encompassing attribute of the
Godhead is not omnipotence, neither is it omniscience, but it
is love - the attribute in respect of which no enhancement is
possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is born as it
were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love.
God is pure love, not supreme wisdom, not supreme might. God
has retained love for himself but has shared wisdom and might
with Lucifer and Ahriman. He has shared wisdom with Lucifer and
might with Ahriman, in order that man may become free, in order
that under the influence of wisdom he may make progress.
If we try to discover the
source of whatever is creative we come to love; love is the ground,
the foundation of everything that lives. It is by a different
impulse in evolution that beings are led to become wiser and
more powerful. Progress is attained through wisdom and strength..
Study of the course taken by the evolution of humanity shows
us how the development of wisdom and strength is subject to change:
there is progressive evolution and then the Christ Impulse which
once poured into mankind through the Mystery of Golgotha. Love
did not, therefore, come into the world by degrees; love streamed
into mankind as a gift of the Godhead, in complete, perfect wholeness.
But man can receive the Impulse into himself gradually. The Divine
Impulse of love as we need it in earthly life is an impulse that
came once and forever.
The god of ordinary Muslims, orthodox Jews,
and Christian fundies is not a god of unalloyed love, but a god
of might, power, cleverness and shrewdness.
Cheers,
Tarjei
http://uncletaz.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tarjei Straume
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:05 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
At 05:48 11.11.2003, Dottie wrote:
The Islamic peoples have always had a great
respect for Mary and her son. They are the only group between
the triad, that respects and includes both Judiasm and Christainity
in the same breath. The Jews disregard Christ and the Christian
say the Jews killed God. Muhammed says respect the people of
the books. (Bible)
I have been told that to Muslims, the idea
that God should have a son is blasphemous. Christianity, therefore,
is an affront to the only true religion of Mohammed.
Tarjei
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dottie zold
Date: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:06 pm
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Hey Tarjei,
Looking in on your other post, I decided to
put two on one:) It feels right to me that this certain group
may be praying to their Angel. Who is their Angel by the way?
This is one of the issues that have come up between my Muslim
friend; stopping at Muhammed and 'his' Angel. Although of course
we do not say 'his angel' that would not be understood by my
friend at this time to a certain extent. However we are starting
to explore this. My experience of my Muslim friends is that if
one engages sincerely with them, without putting the Prophet
down, contemplating these issues can be fruitful.
Speaking with my Rabbi today I put these questions
to him. He just returned from France where he was spit upon and
experienced quite a few looks of hatred from a few Arabs on the
train he was travelling. He had all the words down as far as
hatred being inbred within this culture. He also finds no culpability
of the Jew regarding this relationship. None. He feels we must
hate them back. That one must hate that which is hateful. I told
him I felt that we would then become like that which is trying
to kill us. He says its a Christian concept and bears no reality
to the physical world. We must hate them back. And he is a pretty
liberal Rabbi.
So, I guess after reading your previous post
I am left with the idea that we are from one Godhead. How do
we inspire humanity to embrace our brotherhood that looks to
'one' ultimate God? One Adama?
Can you imagine that we would all recognize
we are 'one' here on Earth and that we are all returning to that
which we come from? So why would we not find a way to bring ourselves
to brotherhood as a people? I think heart to heart people can
be inspired by the goodness and sincere questioning as to how
we find our way home? It sits right in the middle of my throat.
I want to call with all my heart to say, 'come lets eat together
and when we are done we shall lift our voices to our God and
ask for a way to end the wars of humankind. We shall ask for
new eyes to see my brother. Gods eyes.
Have you not thought of what has been wrought
by this war with the Muslims other than death? It is always difficult
to look at it when standing in the age however it would do good
to look at it now. The Christians and the Jews stand together
as one. We have found common ground. Couldn't we, instead of
conquering Islam, invite them to the table. What would the world
be like if we did that? What if instead of sucking their oil
and putting regimes in that decimate their people we ivited them
to the table of humanity? What if we welcomed them?
The number of terrorists compared to the billions
of people they are must be so small as to not even register on
the scale. However our response, 55,000 number of dead in Iraq
by a recent accounting, innocent and soldiers, shows what our
intentions were from the beginning. We are the ones, if we count
ourselves among the Christians, for Bush and company are representing
Christians right now, who are the real terrorists killing innocent
men, women and children. And for what? I feel like we keep manifesting
the worst things possible in the name of Christ. And as much
as they pay we will pay more. And we should know better.
Tarjei
I have been told that to Muslims, the idea that God should
have a son is blasphemous. Christianity, therefore, is an affront
to the only true religion of Mohammed.
Dottie
Well, many early Christian and Jews felt the
same way. The Muslims hold Jesus, we're not talking Christ, to
be a great Prophet of God just as Muhammed is. They hold Jesus
in great esteem. He is mentioned more times in their bible, supposedly,
don't know this for myself, than in ours. I am still reading
it. He is a constant reminder of a great man of God.
My hope is that their are great men of God
who can inspire our people to brotherhood. And it starts with
us. The fundies shouldn't control the game on any side.
My thoughts,
Dottie
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Richard Distasi
Date: Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:40 am
Subject: Re: [anthroposophy_tomorrow] Re: occult lodges and islam
Tarjei quoted the following from RSteiner:
Can the attribute of
omnipotence be ascribed to the Divine Being who lives and weaves
through the world? Contentions born of feeling must here be silent:
were God omnipotent, he would be responsible for everything that
happens and there would be no human freedom. If man can be free,
then certainly there can be no Divine omnipotence.
********************
The all-encompassing
attribute of the Godhead is not omnipotence, neither is it omniscience,
but it is love - the attribute in respect of which no enhancement
is possible. God is uttermost love, unalloyed love, is born as
it were out of love, is the very substance and essence of love.
********************
As blasphemous as this may be to the present day religions that
are past their time it is the absolute truth. Thank you Rudolf
Steiner (and thank you Tarjei for posting this).
rick distas